Justice For Sale..... "How Much do we Budget?"

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I tried to get the information on sergeants, but it was too difficult from my rudimentary search on the internet. Starting pay was more easily found.

I am not against the officer's on this matter.

I just got riled up when Rico started the thread attacking the way he did and then on another forum Paul Tay is trying to start a recall petition on the mayor.

I also know the moral problems that occurred when other city employees took pay cuts under LaFortune when the police got raises. I also remember how the police union treated Mayor Savage when she argued with them over pay.

The police union campaigned against Savage, then LaFortune, and now some are making very mean statements against Taylor. It is hard to believe they will ever not attack a sitting mayor.

Everybody wants the police to be the best we can attract and pay has to be important. I am also amazed that most people want the police to get raises without knowing what they are currently paid.

I applaud you police posters for sharing the information. The better informed we all are the better we can all help this city.

Sorry You got ticked Mike..

When any elected official ,that by the way has promised to carry out the will of the people, states one thing to get elected and shows all indications of going the other direction once they get the job... I kinda get ticked off too..

When an unbiased arbitrator sides with the Police.. That tells me it needs to be addressed..

It is astounding that some people will get all giddy over a stinking sports arena.Praise each other for the many more millions they can pour into it..
Yet; their City is better known for the record breaking crime rate..


One thing is for certain, if I were a Tourist, hearing about a City of people building..  

1. Ballparks
2. Islands
3. Arenas
4. etc.

and last but not least... Building a crime rate that is beginning to feel like Compton CA..


That would be the place on the map I would want to visit...

Not because of all the gizmos... I would like to have a closer look at these Citizens..

Then take a sample of the water.. have it analyzed.. and make damn sure there was none of that near my Family or Business..

I think that some feel that the "Crime Issue" is something that can be postponed until the tax base grows..

Ask MH... it doesn't work that way..

Sorry,.... you are busy trying to find a flaw in the Arbitrator's Work... Think about Crime later..

Save that "Budget Money"..

To continue, in our current fashion,.. we will be needing another Trauma Unit soon..

[rwarn17588]

But here's your problem. The arbitrator deals with the information that's available *at that time* (my emphasis). If other employees of the city get raises before the end of the year, then the city budget changes.

I'm for cops getting their raises. But I'm not for the city running a deficit to do so. The budget's really tight right now. There's no doubt about that. Even the most contrarian city councilors have admitted as such.

The city shouldn't spend money it doesn't have, that's all. Let's wait a spell and get a clearer picture of the city's finances.

And who knows? Maybe a police contract will be hammered out *before* there's an election.

[MH2010]

But here's your problem. The arbitrator deals with the information that's available *at that time* (my emphasis). If other employees of the city get raises before the end of the year, then the city budget changes.

I'm for cops getting their raises. But I'm not for the city running a deficit to do so. The budget's really tight right now. There's no doubt about that. Even the most contrarian city councilors have admitted as such.

The city shouldn't spend money it doesn't have, that's all. Let's wait a spell and get a clearer picture of the city's finances.

And who knows? Maybe a police contract will be hammered out *before* there's an election.


The fiscal year is the same for all departments and everyone negotiates with the city at the same time. Are you saying that other city employees should get their raises before police employees? Do you think public safety should be a priority of this administration?

As far as the city budget and "the city spending money it doesn't have" I encourage you to read the testimony of the City of Tulsa Budget Director. You can find it here...http://www.fop93.com/

"We must prioritize funding for police and firefighters" - Mayor Kathy Taylor

[Wilbur]

The budget's really tight right now. There's no doubt about that. Even the most contrarian city councilors have admitted as such.

Seriously?  Have you read the testimony of the City's budget director?  Who admits he consistently under estimates the City's budget picture and missed the City's income by $12M alone last year (a $12M surplus), and under projects from year to year.  (When the City ends up with a $12M surplus, but says they only have $4M left, do you ever wonder how the other $8M was spent?)

Who admitted that Tulsa set a historical record last year in income from sales taxes, set a historical record in income from use taxes, set a historical record in income from selling utilities, and fully expects to set new records this fiscal year in all three catagories again.

But we're to believe The budget's really tight right now.

Once again, the FOP has to prove to the arbitrator the City has the money available to grant raises, not that is just deserves raises.

[Wilbur]

If you add 8% to Tulsa officer's pay, The new beginning salary is $40,447.08 which would be higher than everybody but Austin.

You can't use starting pay to judge a police department's pay.  Most cities, including Tulsa, attempt to lure new recruits by boasting about their starting pay.  The problem with that is, your starting pay is only good for a year.  You have to look at all the pay grades and the steps contained within those pay grades.  That is where Tulsa falls so far behind.  We may start out higher then someplace else, then fall to the bottom as each year passes by.  The further the top steps fall behind, the more turnover it creates as officers go to other agencies.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:
Sorry You got ticked Mike..

It's ok, Rico. I know you use your power for good.

OK Wilbur. I know that starting pay is a poor way to show comparison, but I don't have the ability to research all the pay ranks for all the cities used as a comparison.

Can you post what a corporal or a sergeant makes in Tulsa and the other agreed cities?

Please make the case.

[Wilbur]

Can you post what a corporal or a sergeant makes in Tulsa and the other agreed cities?

It's much more complicated then that.  A Sergeant in Tulsa is equivalent to a Lieutenant in Oklahoma City, so you have to compare like duties as opposed to just ranks, then compare wages.  So, can I post those figures, no.  Not that involved in the process.

Lets look at it this way, there seems to be a few here within Tulsa Now who believes Tulsa officers are better off then what the FOP promotes.  Yet, even the City will agree Tulsa officers are paid at the bottom of the barrel and have a way to go to get us to AVERAGE.  Their only argument, which many disagree with, is they can't afford to.

[RecycleMichael]

No Wilbur. The only argument isn't that the city can't afford to.

Posters have also brought up the facts about other negotiations with the fire and labor and trades unions plus the fact that non-union employees have sacrificed pay raises while police have not.

Your argument is...see, I proved you have five dollars in your wallet, now give it to me.

I think it is very appropriate for city officials to be conservative on revenue projections. The law requires a balanced budget and you act as if the budget guys should forecast all sunny skies and no rain.

If they did that and there was a downturn in the economy, then there would have to be cuts in staffing at the end of the fiscal year. Your argument is that because revenue was twelve million dollars over in a 500 million dollar budget this year, you should get a pay raise.

The city is saying that yes, there is money in this year's pot, but there is no projection for it next year.

I think the budget people are being very prudent and you act as if they are purposely hiding money so we can underpay cops.

If you believe that sergeants and long time officers are being underpaid, make your case.

[Wilbur]

Posters have also brought up the facts about other negotiations with the fire and labor and trades unions plus the fact that non-union employees have sacrificed pay raises while police have not.

I believe we have covered this topic prior.  The FOP can ONLY negotiate on behalf of FOP members, not every City of Tulsa employee.  AFSCME received larger raises in the past, more then police and fire and there was no outcry at that time for "me too."  And you can claim police did not give up pay in the past, but the fact of the matter is police gave up $2.5M in overtime salaries in one year alone.

And the City has certainly captured you right where they want you - to pit one employee group against another.  Shame shame.  It started with Savage and continues with Taylor.  Prior administrations would never have allowed this to happen.  Young and Randall always did "me too" with all their employees.

And why do you never bring up the fact Fire got raises when everyone else received nothing?  Or is this just anti police?

Your argument is...see, I proved you have five dollars in your wallet, now give it to me.

Then show me where the FOP is requesting all $4M that was left over from last year's $12M surplus!

The city is saying that yes, there is money in this year's pot, but there is no projection for it next year.

You can make that claim with any of the City's expenditures.  And if you read the budget director's testimony, he is already predicting record income for next year.

I think it is very appropriate for city officials to be conservative on revenue projections.

I agree.

The law requires a balanced budget and you act as if the budget guys should forecast all sunny skies and no rain.

False!  Read the budget director's testimony.  Even he got called on the carpet for paiting a rosey picture to the city council, then turns around and paints doom and gloom to the arbitrator for the same time frames.  And, like I mentioned before, he is not predicting rain, he is predicting (or shall we say forcasting) sunny skies.

If you believe that sergeants and long time officers are being underpaid, make your case.

If you don't believe that by now, then vote no at the upcoming election.  But you will go against even the city, who you so strongly feel can do no wrong, who will tell you that all pay grades and pay levels of police are at the bottom.  The FOP and the City both agree Tulsa officers are at the bottom.  If you feel all employees deserve pay raises, like I do, then you should want this for police, or any other group for that matter, so the adminstration will feel a duty to "me too" everyone else.  That is certainly what I hope for.

[RecycleMichael]

I don't know what the firefighters are doing. I haven't seen a thread about their pay. I also don't see them negotiating to use their trucks for their part-time jobs.

You say the city pits one group against another, but you are the ones saying that you should be the priority.

I am not against the police department. My father spent over 20 years as a Tulsa Police officer. I want you guys to get paid fair wages.

I just want the tactics used to be fair and the facts on the table.

Your attacks on the last two mayors and now on the new mayor cause me to believe that you feel that the best strategy is to belittle the budget people and the administration.

You can do better. Show us numbers to prove your point and I am sure you will get your pay raises.

[Wilbur]

You can do better. Show us numbers to prove your point and I am sure you will get your pay raises.

The FOP has already done that.  Thus, the arbitrator's award.

From a Tulsa World editorial:  "The Tulsa police force, compared to most cities of its size, is understaffed and underpaid. Tulsa is one of the few cities requiring police to have college degrees."

Michael - please don't be so bitter.  How many times can I say each and every employee in the City deserves larger pay raises (including the Mayor and Council I might add).  But if every employee group constantly believes the doom and gloom presented each year by the budget people, all employee groups will only go backwards.  We're not even keeping up with inflation, yet the City continues to bring in record income.  And if we can't get decent pay raises at times of record income, then when should decent raises be awarded?  When times are bad, the city makes the claim of doom and gloom and when times are good they make the same argument.  

Your attacks on the last two mayors and now on the new mayor cause me to believe that you feel that the best strategy is to belittle the budget people and the administration.

I'm only quoting the budget director, not belittling him.  If it sounds belittling, maybe he doesn't present his argument very well.  Have you read his testimony?  Please tell me how I have misquoted him?  I have only presented items in his own words.

From policepay.net:  "Most cities claim to be broke every year. Seldom is this the truth."

From the Tulsa World:  "It's déja vu 1994, when then-Mayor Susan Savage earned the undying enmity of the police force by rejecting a request for a 4.5 percent annual pay increase."  (By turning down another arbitrator's award.)

I don't know what the firefighters are doing. I haven't seen a thread about their pay. I also don't see them negotiating to use their trucks for their part-time jobs.

Surely we can agree that other city employees have take home cars other then police.  And I have a firefighter neighbor with a take home car, but you're right, it's not a fire truck.  And when you only work 9 days a month, being a firefighter is your part time job.  []

I just want the tactics used to be fair and the facts on the table.

I'm just asking, so don't rant on me - are you saying the tactics used during arbitration were not fair?  That a federal mediator somehow allowed unfair tactics to be used?

Look - it's not just me!  I've been hearing from every administration since Inhoff that they would like to see their police paid average, yet it never gets done.  After more then 20 years of hearing doom and gloom, yet seeing record general fund budgets and record income for the city, it gets old.  And I'm confident it gets old for the rest of the city work force as well!

[RecycleMichael]

I have no doubt that you convinced the arbitrator. I don't even know who that was or which individuals presented the cases for the police or the city.

I want to be convinced and I haven't been yet.

It is unfair for me to blame you for not making the case. I understand you were not part of the presentation team. But someone has the information.

If this goes to a vote (and I doubt it will) I will have to be convinced that this is a real problem to vote in favor.

The elementary research I showed earlier paints a picture that you deserve a small raise. But you guys keep saying you want a big raise, claiming you only want to be average and that you are 16% below that.

I have faith that this will all work out. I trust the mayor to come up with a solution that is fair to all, police, other city employees and the public.

[rwarn17588]

I think this notion of "you've got the money, give it all to us" is dangerous. We're starting to see some signs of a slowdown in the economy. Should revenues start to slow, don't you think it's prudent to keep *a little* reserve socked away in case things turn sour?

I'm very much a fiscal conservative. I'm very much against spending money that the city doesn't have. Remember, even the most contrarian city councilors admit that the budget is very tight (a fact you all have ignored).

Of course I value public safety. I also value a city that isn't going to run a deficit.

I'm reading a couple supposed law-enforcement officers complaining about the last few mayors, all from different stripes. "All of them are wrong," you essentially say.

Did it occur to you that the police union may be wrong and that these varying mayors may be right?

[RecycleMichael]

Councilor Roscoe Turner brought up at the budget subcommittee that next year we will have to find two million extra dollars for EMSA.

I certainly feel ambulance service is an important priority as well. Was that discussed in the arbitrator's hearing?

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

I think this notion of "you've got the money, give it all to us" is dangerous. We're starting to see some signs of a slowdown in the economy. Should revenues start to slow, don't you think it's prudent to keep *a little* reserve socked away in case things turn sour?

I'm very much a fiscal conservative. I'm very much against spending money that the city doesn't have. Remember, even the most contrarian city councilors admit that the budget is very tight (a fact you all have ignored).

Of course I value public safety. I also value a city that isn't going to run a deficit.

I'm reading a couple supposed law-enforcement officers complaining about the last few mayors, all from different stripes. "All of them are wrong," you essentially say.

Did it occur to you that the police union may be wrong and that these varying mayors may be right?

If you read the City of Tulsa Budget Director testimony (www.FOP93.com) it answers questions regarding what happens if there is an economic slow down and what funds are available for that.

Also we should point out again that this contract is for one year.  If there is some horrible turn of events and the city goes  bankrupt next year then they will be in a perfect position to negotiate pay cuts for police employees because the contract will be up for negotiation again.  However, you never know, the union may find a way to save the city even more money without taking a pay cut like it did before.

As far as the last few mayors go, I think they have all had the same budget people working for them (Budget Director, HR department ect. I don't wanna throw names because I didn't like it when someone was throwing officers names around.)  Could it be that the city administration is wrong and the mayor and city council have been acting on bad information? An independent arbitrator thought the city administration was wrong and stated that we were right.