Justice For Sale..... "How Much do we Budget?"

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Councilor Roscoe Turner brought up at the budget subcommittee that next year we will have to find two million extra dollars for EMSA.

I certainly feel ambulance service is an important priority as well. Was that discussed in the arbitrator's hearing?

City expenses as well as revenues were covered in Arbitration.

EMSA covers a large metro area not just the City of Tulsa. They also cover Sand Springs, Bixby and Jenks. Even though they are dispatched out of the City of Tulsa 911 center(Just FYI, so is the Tulsa County Sheriff office) As a result some councilors and officals have talked about it being more of a Tulsa County/regional function than a City of Tulsa Function. As a result there is alot of discussion on who is going to pay what regarding EMSA. There has also been discussion to follow the Broken Arrow model and have the Tulsa Fire Department take over ambulance service in the City of Tulsa.

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

AFSCME received larger raises in the past, more then police and fire and there was no outcry at that time for "me too."

What year or years did that happened?

[Rico]

Today's World has an article regarding the Police raise issue..

The City Council is cosidering voicing a statement in favor of the raise....

That being said:

One item mentioned, by the Mayor, in the article seems to have merit..  
She states  "she requested from the FOP suggestions on how this raise might be funded,?
for this contract as well as future contracts.

As of yet there has been no solid response from the FOP or it's members.."

If the Citizens of Tulsa are to back this raise in a Vote there should be the willingness to provide input by the FOP..

The Police have 4 year College Degrees... Their Major may have been in Law Enforcement.. But their minor could have been in Economics, Bus. Adm., etc...

If the Police could help solve this issue it would speak volumes as to their credibility and at the same time get them the Money they deserve..

This could also then apply to negotiations with the Firefighters and City Employees..

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

Today's World has an article regarding the Police raise issue..

The City Council is cosidering voicing a statement in favor of the raise....

That being said:

One item mentioned, by the Mayor, in the article seems to have merit..  
She states  "she requested from the FOP suggestions on how this raise might be funded,?
for this contract as well as future contracts.

As of yet there has been no solid response from the FOP or it's members.."

If the Citizens of Tulsa are to back this raise in a Vote there should be the willingness to provide input by the FOP..

The Police have 4 year College Degrees... Their Major may have been in Law Enforcement.. But their minor could have been in Economics, Bus. Adm., etc...

If the Police could help solve this issue it would speak volumes as to their credibility and at the same time get them the Money they deserve..

This could also then apply to negotiations with the Firefighters and City Employees..

By "Solid response" I think that means what the mayor or city finance likes.

The FOP presented her with the legal documents,graphs, charts and studies that won the arbitration. These items showed where the money could come from. The city finance department told her the documents were wrong even though the arbitrator agreed with them. Next, she wanted the FOP and the Chief's office to cut the police budget by approx. $800,000.00 so the city could fund the pay increase.  The FOP and the Chief's office then gave her suggestions about items that could be looked at to save the city money. These items did not equal the $800,000 the city was looking for because the police budget is already tight. She stated that we weren't trying hard enough because our ideas wouldn't save enough money to pay for the raises.

Basically the city wants the police to cut it own budget to pay for the raises the arbitrator awarded us. Which totally goes against what the arbitrator found.

[RecycleMichael]

From your post it sounds like you were telling her where she could cut other budgets so you could get raises.

I am curious about where you think the city could save money.

Is this information you could share?

[MH2010]

No, on my post above, I was talking about the police budget. I don't think the Chief did and I know the FOP didn't give sugestions on other department budgets.

I'm trying to get a electronic copy of our complete arbitration research or at least our legal brief that won the arbitration.  I'm going to try and have it put on the FOP website. I think that would answer alot of questions.

[RecycleMichael]

Silly me. I thought that the police union had used actual officers to research and present information with the arbitrator.

Turns out they hired an out of town consultant who specializes in attacking city budgets.

http://www.policepay.net/

These are my favorite lines from their home page...

"We literally teach you what to say and when to say it. What you will learn is applied knowledge, not theory. After you complete our two day course, you will be a "back slapping" politician and lobbyist that knows how to get what he wants at the negotiating table. This is a no BS, hands on, how to course on contract negotiations. "SHOW ME THE MONEY" that's what we do. We're not interested in suing or fighting with your employer. We have only one goal – TO OBTAIN THE BEST PAY AND BENEFITS FOR YOUR DEPARTMENT.

The program includes lively mock negotiations between the union's negotiator "Mad Dog" Bronkoski and the city's negotiator I.M. Duplicitous. We will ask that all attendees remain in their seats until Mr. Duplicitous has exited the room. We do not want any gratuitous punches thrown toward I.M. or his bodyguard".

I also like this statement from their website...

POLICEPAY.NET has been analyzing city budgets and audits since 1987. Most cities claim to be broke every year. Seldom is this the truth. Once we have gone through the finances of your city, you know unequivocally what they can and cannot afford. If you do not address this issue before negotiations begin, you will probably find yourself receiving the "poverty sermon" from the finance director, complete with the full-color PowerPoint presentation that predicts financial ruin for your city. It is very difficult to combat someone at his own game and this is the finance director's game, being played in his ballpark, with his personal umpires, scorekeeper and grounds crew. If you do not deal with this, your negotiations are most likely doomed.

Silly me. I could have just gone to their website and predicted your posts.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Silly me. I thought that the police union had used actual officers to research and present information with the arbitrator.

Turns out they hired an out of town consultant who specializes in attacking city budgets.

http://www.policepay.net/

These are my favorite lines from their home page...

"We literally teach you what to say and when to say it. What you will learn is applied knowledge, not theory. After you complete our two day course, you will be a "back slapping" politician and lobbyist that knows how to get what he wants at the negotiating table. This is a no BS, hands on, how to course on contract negotiations. "SHOW ME THE MONEY" that's what we do. We're not interested in suing or fighting with your employer. We have only one goal – TO OBTAIN THE BEST PAY AND BENEFITS FOR YOUR DEPARTMENT.

The program includes lively mock negotiations between the union's negotiator "Mad Dog" Bronkoski and the city's negotiator I.M. Duplicitous. We will ask that all attendees remain in their seats until Mr. Duplicitous has exited the room. We do not want any gratuitous punches thrown toward I.M. or his bodyguard".

I also like this statement from their website...

POLICEPAY.NET has been analyzing city budgets and audits since 1987. Most cities claim to be broke every year. Seldom is this the truth. Once we have gone through the finances of your city, you know unequivocally what they can and cannot afford. If you do not address this issue before negotiations begin, you will probably find yourself receiving the "poverty sermon" from the finance director, complete with the full-color PowerPoint presentation that predicts financial ruin for your city. It is very difficult to combat someone at his own game and this is the finance director's game, being played in his ballpark, with his personal umpires, scorekeeper and grounds crew. If you do not deal with this, your negotiations are most likely doomed.

Silly me. I could have just gone to their website and predicted your posts.

Damned is the last part wasn't true. They are the experts.  We're  police officers. I don't think anyone in the PD is as skilled in accounting or city finance as the people that have worked in city finance for years. I know I wouldn't even know how to read the city budget sheets. The smartest thing we did was hire them.  Just like about every other police department union.

Here is some more infor about Policepay.net:

POLICEPAY.NET is the nation's leading collective bargaining consultant for police associations. We have been serving associations all across the nation since 1987. All we do is provide collective bargaining services. We do not sell investments or try to tell you how to run your organization. We are 100% focused on police compensation and contract negotiations. Period! Our sole purpose is to help you obtain the best deal possible for your members, as quickly as possible, and with the least amount of hostilities and anxiety.

If you are serious about improving wages and benefits for your department, then you need to get serious about learning and preparing for collective bargaining and negotiations. Long gone are the days that unprepared negotiators can go to city hall and pound on the desk and come away with substantial improvements. Today, cities dedicate a lot of time and resources to collective bargaining. With few exceptions, the city's negotiating team is better prepared and has a real game plan, which most police negotiators do not have. We didn't use them during the negotiation process and we ended up in arbitration.  That is when we decided to use them and they did what they said they could do.

[RecycleMichael]

I just have a problem with their advertised methods. They have pre-conceived notions that city budget people are all liars and trying to screw the police out of their pay.

They aren't from here and could care less about the other city workers or the citizens in general.

I would be embarassed to hire a lobbyist who bragged about such methods.

It is clear to me that the city was not prepared.

They showed the financials as is (which by the way are completely audited and published each year) and you guys just hired mercenaries to fight your fight for you.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I just have a problem with their advertised methods. They have pre-conceived notions that city budget people are all liars and trying to screw the police out of their pay.

They aren't from here and could care less about the other city workers or the citizens in general.

I would be embarassed to hire a lobbyist who bragged about such methods.

It is clear to me that the city was not prepared.

They showed the financials as is (which by the way are completely audited and published each year) and you guys just hired mercenaries to fight your fight for you.

They are the best in the business. If we are going to spend our union dues we will hire the best.  The city budget department use their best people.

"mercenaries"?? You've got to be joking!  Did you see the picture of Ron York!  Mercenaries in suits!  Waving pencils and calculators!!!!  HHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA

They operate out of OKC. Ron York started his business because he saw the same problem over and over again.  He and his company care about public safety and police officers.  That is why he got into the business.

The city was not prepared? You've got to be kidding. (You are really showing your allegiance now.) We do this every year, at the same time.  When the impasse was called there was an entire month before arbitration. If they weren't prepared then the mayor should fire whoever was in charge.  

Lastly, they did use the city's published financial records. That is what proved our case!

[RecycleMichael]

It is time for me to bail out of this conversation.

I will just get madder about the methods.

Of course you hired a guy who wins. You are only acting in your own best interest, not for the city as a whole.

All I can hope for now is the hope that the Mayor can negotiate an agreement so I don't have to keep discussing this topic.

[Rico]

Thanks for the info MH..

I thought a preemptive post about the Mayor's statement would bring more facts to light...



RM... I do not know how to explain it any differently... The interests of the FOP are to take care of the Police that in turn take care of the Citizens of Tulsa..

To say that the FOP is just after the money and could care less about Tulsa is absurd.

Would you place your life on the line for something you did not believe in...?

As for the MONEY... There are much greener pastures... With far less headaches, for a Cop, than Tulsa..

Mercenaries...........Puleeeez Louise... Tulsa could not afford 25 Mercenaries on what they pay the Police..


One suggestion TPD... Place the facts in the hands of the people... Even if you have to print them and drop them out the Helicopter Door..[8D]

[MH2010]

Another view from Michael Bates:


Mayor Kathy Taylor is busy trying to wash her hands of any tough decision-making on giving Tulsa police officers the raise that the arbitrator says they deserve. In the Tulsa Whirled today she's quoted as saying:

"So far, I'm pretty disappointed that the police haven't come to help me develop a solution to this problem," the mayor said. "We need to work as a team to figure it out."

She said the "easiest thing would be to accept the raise and not figure out how to pay for it long term, but that is not the fiscally responsible thing to do."

Taylor said she has asked Police Chief Dave Been and the FOP leadership to provide information by Sept. 1 on how to pay for their raise, but hasn't gotten a detailed analysis. She said she plans to call on them again.

"This shouldn't just be up to the mayor to figure out when the FOP and the chief are running the Police Department," she said.



It's hard not to hear a peevish, passive-aggressive tone in that comment.

It's the Mayor's job, as head of the City's executive branch, to allocate the City's financial resources to fit our priorities and meet our obligations. She has a finance department to help her with that task. She's already punted once on serious budget work this year, opting for a utility rate increase instead of limiting the growth of the city budget to the rate of inflation.

A couple of people have suggested a source of funds worth considering: The money currently used to pay the Tulsa Metro Chamber for convention and tourism promotion and economic development. Not all of the money, mind you, just the additional percentage of the hotel/motel tax that the Chamber has been granted every year since the late '80s.

It is reasonable to argue that nothing is more important to Tulsa's ability to attract conventions, tourists, and new businesses, and to retain existing businesses and attract the labor pool they need to grow and thrive, than to get violent crime in Tulsa under control. And to do that we need to retain our best police officers and attract high-quality additions to the force.

I'm pleased to see that four of the City Councilors are backing the raise. It seems to me that the Council could on its own initiative pass a budget amendment to make the funds available for the raise, then appropriate the funds. If the Mayor approves the budget amendment and appropriation, the raise would go in without the need for an election. The election would only go forward if the Mayor vetoed the raise.

quoted from Batesline.com

[BASleuth]

MH2010 and Wilbur:

You have posted straight forward, honest information on which decisions concerning this matter can be based.  Realize there are individuals who will NEVER be satisfied. Will ALWAYS want more data concerning areas unrelated to the matter at issue. Do we accept the arbitrators decision OR the last best offer submitted by the city to arbitration.

Yesterday the mayor said "So far, I'm petty disappointed that the police haven't come to help me develop a solution to this problem" and "This should not be up to the mayor to figure out when the FOP and the chief are running the police department"  

A "dame duck" administration was created when  announcing the re-instatement of Chief Been it was announced he would be departing within the year.

Yesterday morning indications were you were seeking assistance; That four councilors were introducing a resolution in support of arbitrators award and would discuss it at committee meeting on 9/19/06 at 10:00A.M.  Then yesterday afternoon, media reported you had just made an offer to FOP details might be forth coming at your State of the City Speech at noon 9/19/06.

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by BASleuth

MH2010 and Wilbur:

You have posted straight forward, honest information on which decisions concerning this matter can be based.  Realize there are individuals who will NEVER be satisfied. Will ALWAYS want more data concerning areas unrelated to the matter at issue.

That's kind of a disingenuous accusation to make toward people simple because they don't agree with you.