Council talks Illegal Immigration Enforcement

[Jammie]

Subject: Listen to a teacher
Here is an email that I received this morning. Sorry that I don't know how to delete the "bad" word in it.




"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration there are some things that you should be aware of:

I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socio economic and income levels.

Most of the schools you are hearing about÷South Gate High, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, etc.-where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 Schools.

One hundred percent of the students in this school and other Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least
moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones.

The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage
pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for baby-sitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center; half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them Putasä=whores, and throwing things that the teachers were in tears.

Free medical, free education, free food, day care, etc., etc., etc. Is it
any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?

To my conservative friends: I hope you're really proud of how George W. Bush has helped to sellout this country with his pro-illegal policy. I voted for him too, but on this issue he is a disaster.

To my bleeding-heart liberal friends who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the re al world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.

Higher insurance, Medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases, etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it.

Does anyone in their right mind really think they will VOLUNTARILY LEAVE and return?

There are many hardworking Hispanic/American citizens that contribute to our country and many that I consider my true friends. We should encourage and accept those Hispanics who have done it the right and legal way.

It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that REFUSES TO ASSMILATE, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about "politically correct" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know."

[Hometown]

quote:Originally posted by Jammie

Subject: Listen to a teacher
Here is an email that I received this morning. Sorry that I don't know how to delete the "bad" word in it.




"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration there are some things that you should be aware of:

I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socio economic and income levels.

Most of the schools you are hearing about÷South Gate High, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, etc.-where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 Schools.

One hundred percent of the students in this school and other Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least
moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones.

The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage
pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for baby-sitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center; half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them Putasä=whores, and throwing things that the teachers were in tears.

Free medical, free education, free food, day care, etc., etc., etc. Is it
any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?

To my conservative friends: I hope you're really proud of how George W. Bush has helped to sellout this country with his pro-illegal policy. I voted for him too, but on this issue he is a disaster.

To my bleeding-heart liberal friends who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the re al world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.

Higher insurance, Medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases, etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it.

Does anyone in their right mind really think they will VOLUNTARILY LEAVE and return?

There are many hardworking Hispanic/American citizens that contribute to our country and many that I consider my true friends. We should encourage and accept those Hispanics who have done it the right and legal way.

It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that REFUSES TO ASSMILATE, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about "politically correct" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know."

Jammie, Now that I've gotten to know you a little better I feel that you would be completely comfortable in South Tulsa.  And I want you to promise you'll do your own yard work.

[Jammie]

Thank you, Hometown. I was actually beginning to wonder if Tulsa would be right for us.[] Yardwork? What's that?[]

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by snopes

quote:Originally posted by papaspot

quote:Originally posted by snopes

Wrong Papaspot. I can't stand Rush; from what I understand, he's in total agreement with Bush, which is "Open them thar borders for that free enterprise!" Also, it was the hundreds of thousands of illegals and their supporters marching in the streets across the U.S. demanding they have the same rights as citizens that made me begin to scrutinize this problem more closely.

Wrong. The right wingers were all in a tiff long before anybody marched. And Ru$h isn't the only right wing propagandist stirring up the right wingers for self serving reasons.

I see the Republicans as much of a problem here with this issue (if not more so) than the Democrats. After all, it was Ronald Reagan who granted amnesty in the first place. And George Bush has done no better with his plans for amnesty and refusal to close the borders. Honestly, I could care less about who brought the issue up, I would just like it resolved. Do you disagree that this is a problem? It appears the only problem you have is that the issue was brought up at all. I see a real problem here and I'm not a right winger.

I don't disagree that it's a problem, I just don't see it as the enormous problem that it's been blown up to be. I think there are more important problems that we need to be concerned about before we spend all that energy worrying about this one.

[papaspot]

Stuff that's forwarded around in email isn't exactly a credible source for anything.

quote:Originally posted by Jammie

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know."

Statements like that are red flags. They usually mean, "This email is courtesy of the imagination of someone with too much time on his/her hands and an axe to grind. You should disregard all claims made herein as pure bullcrap. If you suspect something in this email is actually FACTUAL, you should feel free to verify it through a credible source before passing it on as truth."

[snopes]

quote:Originally posted by papaspot

quote:Originally posted by snopes

quote:Originally posted by papaspot

quote:Originally posted by snopes

Wrong Papaspot. I can't stand Rush; from what I understand, he's in total agreement with Bush, which is "Open them thar borders for that free enterprise!" Also, it was the hundreds of thousands of illegals and their supporters marching in the streets across the U.S. demanding they have the same rights as citizens that made me begin to scrutinize this problem more closely.

Wrong. The right wingers were all in a tiff long before anybody marched. And Ru$h isn't the only right wing propagandist stirring up the right wingers for self serving reasons.

I see the Republicans as much of a problem here with this issue (if not more so) than the Democrats. After all, it was Ronald Reagan who granted amnesty in the first place. And George Bush has done no better with his plans for amnesty and refusal to close the borders. Honestly, I could care less about who brought the issue up, I would just like it resolved. Do you disagree that this is a problem? It appears the only problem you have is that the issue was brought up at all. I see a real problem here and I'm not a right winger.

I don't disagree that it's a problem, I just don't see it as the enormous problem that it's been blown up to be. I think there are more important problems that we need to be concerned about before we spend all that energy worrying about this one.

I guess that's where you and I can agree to disagree Papaspot. I see it as a problem, maybe not the biggest, but a big problem nonetheless. I don't think anyone can deny that it is a growing problem and my frustration stems from politicians on both sides of the aisle using the issue to further their own selfish needs. Which political party uses it to their advantage the most doesn't really matter to me; they are both guilty and we are left holding the bag. Perhaps we here in Tulsa don't have the problem that cities in the border states have, but I do believe that we will begin to experience those problems soon. I'd like to see the problem addressed before it gets to that level. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.
-Cheers

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by snopes


I guess that's where you and I can agree to disagree Papaspot. I see it as a problem, maybe not the biggest, but a big problem nonetheless. I don't think anyone can deny that it is a growing problem and my frustration stems from politicians on both sides of the aisle using the issue to further their own selfish needs. Which political party uses it to their advantage the most doesn't really matter to me; they are both guilty and we are left holding the bag. Perhaps we here in Tulsa don't have the problem that cities in the border states have, but I do believe that we will begin to experience those problems soon. I'd like to see the problem addressed before it gets to that level. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.
-Cheers

I'm not sure the government sees it as a problem--at least not at the federal level. If they suddenly got serious about it, grocery prices would skyrocket as would inflation. That would make whomever is at the helm look bad and politics is all about not looking bad.

[papaspot]

Another obstacle to taking enforcement beyond the level of rhetoric is the cost. Any kind of serious enforcement would require a LOT of money. Many of the people (at least in my view) who feel that this is a major problem also complain about high taxes. I have to wonder if they're willing to pay HIGHER taxes to cover the cost of enforcement.

[snopes]

quote:Originally posted by papaspot

Another obstacle to taking enforcement beyond the level of rhetoric is the cost. Any kind of serious enforcement would require a LOT of money. Many of the people (at least in my view) who feel that this is a major problem also complain about high taxes. I have to wonder if they're willing to pay HIGHER taxes to cover the cost of enforcement.

Medical costs, and a host of other factors have to be considered as well, don't you think?

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by snopes

quote:Originally posted by papaspot

Another obstacle to taking enforcement beyond the level of rhetoric is the cost. Any kind of serious enforcement would require a LOT of money. Many of the people (at least in my view) who feel that this is a major problem also complain about high taxes. I have to wonder if they're willing to pay HIGHER taxes to cover the cost of enforcement.

Medical costs, and a host of other factors have to be considered as well, don't you think?

Certainly not initially. It would eventually result in some savings but not as much as many people think. The medical care that illegal aliens do receive is pretty much bare-bones bottom of the barrel. And in many cases, those costs are borne by private charity hospitals. In the long term, it would probably be a wash with regard to the cost of enforcement but how many politicians do you know that base their decisions on the long term? The runaway inflation that would result would also probably level off in the long run. But the percent of your paycheck that you spend on groceries would go up substantially and never come down.

[snopes]

quote:Originally posted by papaspot

quote:Originally posted by snopes

quote:Originally posted by papaspot

Another obstacle to taking enforcement beyond the level of rhetoric is the cost. Any kind of serious enforcement would require a LOT of money. Many of the people (at least in my view) who feel that this is a major problem also complain about high taxes. I have to wonder if they're willing to pay HIGHER taxes to cover the cost of enforcement.

Medical costs, and a host of other factors have to be considered as well, don't you think?

Certainly not initially. It would eventually result in some savings but not as much as many people think. The medical care that illegal aliens do receive is pretty much bare-bones bottom of the barrel. And in many cases, those costs are borne by private charity hospitals. In the long term, it would probably be a wash with regard to the cost of enforcement but how many politicians do you know that base their decisions on the long term? The runaway inflation that would result would also probably level off in the long run. But the percent of your paycheck that you spend on groceries would go up substantially and never come down.

I have a friend that lives in Dallas, and she says that Parkland Hospital's (a public hospital) usage by illegal aliens is stunning. Births, treatment, and all other costs are aborbed by the citizens of Dallas County and are huge (in the millions and millions). Regarding private hospitals; the costs are passed on to consumers like you and me. And btw, I know that you said Private Charity Hospitals.
There are other issues, like none of the illegal aliens seeming to have car insurance. I can speak for that personally, as I've been in a car accident and the person who hit me did not speak english, did not have insurance, and was let off scott free. I don't know if that person was an illegal alien, but I would just about bet my house on it. There are many other issues as well,such as people who aren't citizens demanding to have the rights of citizens. Carrying signs saying "go back to Europe <insert derogatory racial term here>" and not wanting to assimilate into the general population. And the bottom line is that they are here illegally. I never will buy into your argument Papaspot, but I do respect your opinion.

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by snopes


I have a friend that lives in Dallas, and she says that Parkland Hospital's (a public hospital) usage by illegal aliens is stunning. Births, treatment, and all other costs are aborbed by the citizens of Dallas County and are huge (in the millions and millions). Regarding private hospitals; the costs are passed on to consumers like you and me. And btw, I know that you said Private Charity Hospitals.

For the sake of argument, lets say that all you say here is true and accurate. Eventually, the savings would probably (presumably) completely offset the additional cost of enforcement. In fact, we might even see a gain. That still isn't going to happen the first year and probably not the second or third. And you're right back where you started from, i.e. asking politicians to do something that they abhor: to plan for the long term.

And you'll still be spending a whole helluva lot more of your paycheck on groceries even ten years later.

quote:
There are other issues, like none of the illegal aliens seeming to have car insurance. I can speak for that personally, as I've been in a car accident and the person who hit me did not speak english, did not have insurance, and was let off scott free. I don't know if that person was an illegal alien, but I would just about bet my house on it. There are many other issues as well,such as people who aren't citizens demanding to have the rights of citizens. Carrying signs saying "go back to Europe <insert derogatory racial term here>" and not wanting to assimilate into the general population. And the bottom line is that they are here illegally. I never will buy into your argument Papaspot, but I do respect your opinion.

It's possible that the other person WAS illegal. But if all you've got to go on is the fact that they didn't have insurance and didn't speak English, you're just speculating. There are a lot of people that are here LEGALLY that don't speak English and there are a lot of people running around that were BORN here that don't have insurance.

[snopes]

quote:Originally posted by papaspot

quote:Originally posted by snopes

There are other issues, like none of the illegal aliens seeming to have car insurance. I can speak for that personally, as I've been in a car accident and the person who hit me did not speak english, did not have insurance, and was let off scott free. I don't know if that person was an illegal alien, but I would just about bet my house on it. There are many other issues as well,such as people who aren't citizens demanding to have the rights of citizens. Carrying signs saying "go back to Europe <insert derogatory racial term here>" and not wanting to assimilate into the general population. And the bottom line is that they are here illegally. I never will buy into your argument Papaspot, but I do respect your opinion.

It's possible that the other person WAS illegal. But if all you've got to go on is the fact that they didn't have insurance and didn't speak English, you're just speculating. There are a lot of people that are here LEGALLY that don't speak English and there are a lot of people running around that were BORN here that don't have insurance.

You are correct and I was only speculating on that person's status. I'll try and refrain from speculation any longer. Here is some information from the center for immigration studies that I find disturbing. It was found at the following website:

http://www.cis.org/topics/costs.html

 "The National Research Council has estimated that the net fiscal cost of immigration ranges from $11 billion to $22 billion per year, with most government expenditures on immigrants coming from state and local coffers, while most taxes paid by immigrants go to the federal treasury. The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility.


This is especially true of illegal immigration. Even though illegal aliens make little use of welfare, from which they are generally barred, the costs of illegal immigration in terms of government expenditures for education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care are significant. California has estimated that the net cost to the state of providing government services to illegal immigrants approached $3 billion during a single fiscal year. The fact that states must bear the cost of federal failure turns illegal immigration, in effect, into one of the largest unfunded federal mandates.

[papaspot]

I don't dispute for one second that it's a problem, Snopes and I agree that it's a costly one. The question is whether the solution will be more expensive than the problem. Think about this. For the last several years, every politician that has ran for everything from president to church secretary has promised to do something about the problem. Out of those millions of promises, how many politicians have done a single thing to actually stop or slow the rate of illegal immigration? That number is somewhere in the neighborhood of zero. Why is that? Why would not one single politician do something that might actually put them down in history as having actually done something about a problem? Why would not one politician do something that would guarantee them their office for as long as they cared to hold it? One POSSIBILITY is that they know that the cost of living in the U.S. would skyrocket. And since they would be the ones at the helm, they would get blamed. They would get blamed for the doubling or tripling of grocery prices. They would get blamed for the runaway inflation that would ensue, at least for the first two or three years.

IMO, the current system is just broke. The people that would benefit the U.S. economy by working cheap could not POSSIBLY qualify to immigrate here—even if they could afford the processing fees. The people that want to come here and CAN qualify to come here legally usually DO come here legally. The people that come here illegally do it because it's impossible for them to come here any other way.

[Conan71]

I'm tired of them discussing it- it's time to take action.

John Sullivan, even though I consider him to be nothing more than a rubber-stamp toadie for the Republican party, has actually tried to do something about immigration problems in his district, though looking around, I don't see any results.  One person can have vision, but if they are surrounded by apathy, those visions are worthless.

It's become such a huge problem because it's been allowed to go on un-checked for the last forty years and protecting our borders was never a high priority as evidenced by lacking manpower in our border patrols.  Both Republicans and Democrats have let us down.  Now the problem is so huge, any solution is overwhelming.  There has been apathy at every level of government toward the problem.

I resent being pandered to by either party during this election cycle on the issue of immigration.  All it is going to come down to is more empty promises which will go un-fulfilled after the elections.  While politicians in Washington have been concerned about legislating morality issues like same-sex marriage and abortion and wasting time with witch-hunts on the sitting leader (I'm just as pissed about the Clinton impeachment as the undercurrent regarding Bush) this problem has kept growing by the year.  This is a very real national security and economic issue.

Yes, I'm also pi$$ed that our foray into Iraq has taken the focus (and funding) off the border issue at home.  

Both sides are too afraid of disenfranchising the voters of the legal Latino community to actually do anything about the problem.  And, ostensibly, without any sort of good voter registration/verification program, it's possible for either party to recruit illegal aliens to vote in an election, and don't think it's not happening.

My solution is to close the borders, beef up patrols, give illegals 90 days to either get out or come forward.  Those who refuse to either leave voluntarily or refuse to come forward and get legal, as they are discovered by local law enforcement, are detained and immediately deported- no questions asked.  No rights for squatters- they are breaking our laws.

Those who come forward get a social security number, start working toward the requirements to become a legal citizen, file taxes, learn our language, enroll in a healthcare plan, abide by our laws, or face immediate deportation.  If they have a child here prior to completing citizenship requirements, that child is not granted citizenship until their parent(s) have completed all requirements.  And they are to pay for every nickel it costs them to become a legal U.S. Citizen- no subsidies on this one.

It's not that difficult to enforce if the feds would step up to back up local law enforcement.  The problem that has been explained to me by several of my friends who are cops is that there has become apathy on the level of local law enforcement because it has become such a revolving door of illegal immigrants.  They send one guy back home and he's back three weeks later with two of his friends from the old country.  Closing the borders and putting more emphasis on border security would keep this from happening.

I'm very, very pi$$ed this problem has been allowed to go on unabated for so many years.  It is a huge burden on tax payers and it multiplies every year.  The hand-outs keep getting better and there's too much incentive for illegals to keep coming in.  I'm sick and tired of America being a dumping ground for Mexico's undesireables and under-employed.

As to the comment elsewhere on this thread about Parkland in Dallas.  There are approximately 8,000 babies born a year, just in that hospital, to undocumented aliens and it is breaking them.  Parkland is not a private charity hospital.  They come here because they can get better health care while here, don't have to pay for it and their child can now claim dual citizenship.  We get stuck with the bill and the child becomes a U.S. citizen all because his mother did nothing more than climb a fence.  

I'm well aware that America was built mostly by immigrants, but the traditional method by which our ancestors immigrated was through legal channels, and they were willing to pay their own way and contribute back to the system that makes healtcare, roads, and police protection possible.