Tulsa a Dying City?

[waterboy]

Shadows made the remark that we are foolish to be investing heavily in river development when we are a "dying city". I don't have the stats to confirm or deny that statement. But I did drive through downtown on Friday after paying a traffic fine at the courthouse. I tried to be objective (as much as a native can be) and I have to say, downtown at 10:00am on a Friday the city looks real sickly if not dying. Nordam has tons of spraypaint signing, the roads are abysmal (they actually throw you around), vacant lots abound, people generally look irritated to have to be there. Some tacky old buldings like the Bill White dealership, seem to have survived but are unkempt. Art deco beauties have gang signs on them next to their lease signs. The only indication of life are the churches and Central park. I could go on but its kind of depressing. My son asked why we are building the Arena so close to the homeless shelter and the jail. That area looks pretty rough too. I inquired about lease space just north of downtown and didn't even get a return call.

How about it TulsaNow. What would make me and my Shadow think differently? We could use some good news.

[aoxamaxoa]

How do we make ouselves global? Obviously, from a national perspective, we offer no more than any other 3rd tier community.

Sounds like your kid asks intelligent questions.

[sauerkraut]

OKC is developing a big system of jogging & bike trails, I think Tulsa should expand the RiverSide Trail system and make a city wide trail system similar to what Omaha, NE. has. The River area is Tulsa's biggest gem. or so it seems to me.[]

[aoxamaxoa]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

OKC is developing a big system of jogging & bike trails, I think Tulsa should expand the RiverSide Trail system and make a city wide trail system similar to what Omaha, NE. has. The River area is Tulsa's biggest gem. or so it seems to me.[]

Except for the bad air and atrocious western visuals, I agree.

But what could we do on a global level?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

OKC is developing a big system of jogging & bike trails, I think Tulsa should expand the RiverSide Trail system and make a city wide trail system similar to what Omaha, NE. has. The River area is Tulsa's biggest gem. or so it seems to me.[]

Except for the bad air and atrocious western visuals, I agree.

But what could we do on a global level?

I'm not so excited about developing a global base. SiUkLo is right that a city develops its own personality. You don't go looking for one. If we're a good spot for global growth it will happen in spite of our best efforts to deny it.... and vice versa. Do you think the city is in death throes?

[aoxamaxoa]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

OKC is developing a big system of jogging & bike trails, I think Tulsa should expand the RiverSide Trail system and make a city wide trail system similar to what Omaha, NE. has. The River area is Tulsa's biggest gem. or so it seems to me.[]

Except for the bad air and atrocious western visuals, I agree.

But what could we do on a global level?

I'm not so excited about developing a global base. SiUkLo is right that a city develops its own personality. You don't go looking for one. If we're a good spot for global growth it will happen in spite of our best efforts to deny it.... and vice versa. Do you think the city is in death throes?

That's nonsense.

[waterboy]

Then take your idea to Ponca City and see how far you get with it. Apparently all it takes is want to be and some money. I think they have money there.

[aoxamaxoa]

I am taking the idea from New Mexico which does not have near the aero space infrastructure in place that Tulsa already does but is moving forward on the same global theory.

Waterman, your comments are immature. Please realize our hope lay in the membership in the global economy, the global community.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

I am taking the idea from New Mexico which does not have near the aero space infrastructure in place that Tulsa already does but is moving forward on the same global theory.

Waterman, your comments are immature. Please realize our hope lay in the membership in the global economy, the global community.

Sir, you are emblematic of immaturity. Lets keep the personal remarks to a minimum. The one thing NM does have in common with us is a poor, uneducated populace.  It has plenty of illegals too, so I guess they're set up for Globalism. We don't even have a major University and you're ready to send us into Aerospace? Yeah, I think there's a high tech incubator building being used as a state employment agency downtown. We were going to make ourselves the high tech center if I remember right. Wait, Mr. Wizard, I want to see us be the top secret extra-terrestrial research base. After all we've got that Boeing hangar we paid for.

Ps. Oh, yeah don't forget we were bidding on that atom splitter thing that was going to catapult us into the next century. That was during the last century. Maybe we could gradually work towards something achievable in our lifetimes instead of looking for the "big score" all the time.

[TheArtist]

I think Tulsa is teetering either towards renewal or slow death.  I read that if Tulsa hadnt had an influx of Hispanics that its population would now be back to 1970s levels.  Is this what we are counting on for the future as well?  

Even if the East End and downtown Mayo district et. al. go as planned, we will just be holding on, and barely.  These things will take years to come to fruition.  But remember, during that time those other competing cities will be moving even further ahead.

The natural growth of Tulsa just isnt going to do it, compared to many other places we already are dying. Our natural growth rate is abysmal, its barely hanging on. There isnt going to be another oil boom for us.

We need something to put us on the map. Something that makes us enticing.

I think many of us realize that doing more with our colleges. Putting a huge influx of investment to grow them is definitely one very important component that Tulsa needs to pursue.  Unfortunately I just havent heard anyone in the leadership of our community expousing that?  Where is the big and bold vision for that?

But here is a chicken and egg problem, even if we have larger colleges we will need to be a city that can attract those young people to our colleges.

So I think we need to do 2 things at once to give our city a jump start that will get it moving at a higher speed well into the future, vrs the slow barely hanging on situation we find ourselves in.

I think investing in the colleges near downtown, I include TCC along with OSU and even TUs growth helps.  Along with doing something along the river near downtown.

But it cant just be any old development along the river. We really do need something visionary and special. That includes recreational activities on and near the water. And here is where you may call me crazy and odd and perhaps its just my personal bias as an artist.... But I think we need something that I would call a "romantic component" added as well.  

I think that one thing Tulsa is missing is what I would call an Element of Romance.  Through all our discussions about the river and other developments, even the desire to promote urban walkable districts, there has been something I think I have been hearing others say, with out actually saying it.  Something that has been underneath the wants and hopes. The romance of a city, and it doesn't have to be mooshy romantic, romance.  

Its that quality you get when you imagine the Plaza in KC, a coffee shop and the mountains of Seattle, the music scene, night life and river of Austin, a cafe and Eiffel tower of Paris.  

Tulsa needs that Catch, that element that you can visualize, can say in just a couple words and everyone knows what your talking about, where it is, can see it in their minds.  

Tulsa needs THAT for itself.  

Despite the different elements that each of those desirable cities has, the unifying, underlying quality, is an element of Romance. An imagined quality that feeds into peoples hopes and desires, their wants for a wonderful life.  

If something of what I am saying is true it means we cant just build any old thing.  Because we may just unwittingly miss out on what we are really wanting.  Yes this quality may eventually be found naturally as the city grows because peoples collective desires will unconsciously make it happen, along Brookside, Cherry street, Downtown, even along the river.  BUT if we acknowledge thats what it is, we can actively take steps to purposely forge ahead in that direction. It wont be an easy thing, it will take care and thought, but it can be done.  And I think we must if we want to really go somewhere.  If we want to have that identity, spoken in a few words that will conjur a  desirable place.  

Our river has great potential for such a thing.  With its hills, the downtown, beautiful neighborhoods, close proximity to Brookside and Cherry Streets, trails, etc.  Enhancing that area with a dense urban, walkable, type development  either in or right next to the river with a great public space would be just the ticket.  But I do think one very important component should be some sort of monumental, readily identifiable structure or work of art.  The channels has its solar canopy to do that, the piers has that and the modern eiffel tower structure.  I hope I can get across the benefit of having something of nature.  All of those things together, would get us that element of Romance for Tulsa, that instantly recognizeable, positive, identity.

Say Tulsa and river and bam, instantly everyone should visualize that space, what it looks like, what you imagine it being like to be there, and then those great things near it like downtown etc.  No more people getting off a plane and expecting to see tumbleweeds.  We need that positive, desirable, identity.  We can either act purposefully to create it, or continue, as is, hoping it will eventually happen by chance.

[TheArtist]

Sorry about the loooong post lol.

[Chris]

Brilliantly put Artist, I couldn't agree more.

I keep feeling that there should be more I can do. Not currently living in Tulsa doesn't help but even if I was I'm not sure what I'd do. I got very involved in the Vision 2025 effort. I went to every meeting I could get to, added my opinion whenever they wanted it and maybe sometimes when they didn't. Even though I had a project I submitted make it on the ballot(it was the neighborhood part of downtowns and neighborhoods.)I still felt overwhelmingly meaningless. Hell I wouldn't of even known they picked my project if Jerry Lasker hadn't of told me, I still never got any credit for it. But that's unimportant and in the past. I want to be more involved but it seems like all the people that run this city are unwilling to listen to anything anyone not elite enough has to say. That is the number one reason I left the TulsaNow leadership coordinators group. The more I tried to speak my mind the more they didn't want to listen(there were a few exceptions). I had an interview with a Tulsa World reporter in which I said that I felt the Vision 2025 meetings were starting to seem like a big charade. I was quoted in the paper as being "of the organization TulsaNow." Not "speaking for it." Even though, this still severely miffed the other "coordinators" and solidified my exit from the group. I know this post is going long so I guess what I'm saying is that the problem with Tulsa is the people who control it. The average citizen has almost no power to affect the direction the city is going in, no matter how much (s)he cares. That in my mind is the number one reason Tulsa is a dying city.

[YoungTulsan]

Tulsa has diabetes.  Apparently sales tax initiatives are the insulin according to some.

[swake]

Is Tulsa dying?

Isn't there a thread going on right now, by the same "the sky is falling" crowd, that Tulsa is getting over developed. How can you have too much development going on and be dying at the same time?

Have Shadows or Axo ever posted anything that ever turned out to be correct? Axo is famous for "inside information" that turns out to be crap. Shadows is famous for rambling nonsensical posts that hint at much, and say little and hurt your head when you read them.

No offense Waterboy, but you have been drinking the Stakeholders Kool-Aid. (and Shadow's and Axo man's) You've let your personal distaste for the River Parks Authority drag you into The Stakeholders way of thinking. You've been played, personally. They are using scare tactics of "Tulsa is dying" to get us to back this ludicrous proposal.

For example, a falsehood you have been fed, Tulsa is an uneducated city, it's actually pretty high up in the rankings for the percentage of people over 25 with degrees for large cities, what we lack are people with advanced degrees. That is sad but understandable when we don't have a large research university in town, yet.

What we have is a downtown that is badly in need of help and a metro development pattern gone haywire. These are issues that need to be addressed. Does The Channels address any of that?

[tulitlikeitis]

Dying ... you mean you have just noticed. Tulsa has been dying for 25-30 years and one symbol of that is crime. See new thread.