Tulsa a Dying City?

[snopes]

quote:Originally posted by tulitlikeitis

Dying ... you mean you have just noticed. Tulsa has been dying for 25-30 years and one symbol of that is crime. See new thread.

Wrong about your post on dangerous cities Davaz. See the thread regarding dangerous cities and my response.

[waterboy]

I appreciate your remarks. I don't agree with them though. I haven't officially made a decision on the Channels (no ones waiting with baited breath) but it doesn't take much to read between the lines. If you're reading my posts on the river threads you should know I am not part of the "crew". If not re-read them. To be blunt, there is much to be gleaned from their due diligence but I believe, like you, that the basic plan is just ludicrous. The dam too large, the backup too long and the islands unnecessary. It ignores efforts to co-ordinate and leverage regional plans like Jenks & Sand Springs. Flooding existing RPA lands is the final blow. But its a big plan that has redirected interest back to the river and they deserve respect for having spent their own money to present it. More importantly, it finally addressed issues that other plans have not. Security, Authority, Ownership, Safety and Cleanup.

Because I had business relations with RPA it is true that it biases my opinion of them. They have a long lackluster history of ignoring opportunities to develop. Thats why the Aquarium is at Jenks.  And they duplicate other city efforts. But I sat next to Tommy, the current second in command over there, during the Stakeholders meetings. He's an able and aggressive manager and a good guy. Unlike other employees past and present there, he actually lives near the river. He was supportive of my business. I, better than most, understand the problems they face as an authority. Should I refrain from commenting on them because I know more than most about them?

Swake, I'm just commenting and asking for re-affirmation that Tulsa is not dying. After driving through several areas of the city: downtown, 71st Memorial, 61st Sheridan, and areas of mid-town it would be hard to disagree with that description. I am encouraged that stats show Tulsa has a high percentage of degreed people. Flesh those figures out a bit. A lot of corporation people left, they may not be current.  As a native, they don't fit what I experience here. Intelligent communities don't re-elect the likes of Inhofe over and over. But my remark was that OK, like NM is dumb, and poor. Hard to challenge that. I am really hoping that we arn't in the dis-array we appear to be in. Convince me.

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by tulitlikeitis

Dying ... you mean you have just noticed. Tulsa has been dying for 25-30 years and one symbol of that is crime. See new thread.

have we confimred that this is davazz?

[Kenosha]

Dying?

Ha Ha...funny stuff.

All of you who believe that should move immediately.  Cut your losses now.  In fact, sell me your real estate.  I will bail you out, so you can expedite your departure.

[aoxamaxoa]

What makes Swake an authority?

My posts speak the truth.

Your posts are arrogant bs....

Speak to what it is that I have said here that is false....


And the fact is the Channels buffoons will use the Tulsa is Dying speach to scare you into support.....and if that does not work they will make you out to be a bad person ala Swake the Snake.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

Dying?

Ha Ha...funny stuff.

All of you who believe that should move immediately.  Cut your losses now.  In fact, sell me your real estate.  I will bail you out, so you can expedite your departure.

Geez, does anyone read these posts? Or just scan them. Details Mazeppa. I'm looking for details that prove the statement as false. Cheerleading doesnt' do that.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist


We need something to put us on the map. Something that makes us enticing.

I think that one thing Tulsa is missing is what I would call an Element of Romance.

Don't you think that whatever that element is, that it must be an outgrowth of the city's personality? Are we a romantic community? I remember when the Space Needle was built in Seattle and suddenly that city had an icon that said more than any Chamber slogan would ever say. They were futurist thinking, and dramatic. But that was an outgrowth of the city's people. It fit them. My complaint is that we keep trying on personalities like a middle aged woman tries on swim suits. They never seem to fit like they did when they were 18 and they usually don't keep them long.

Once that personality is determined we can do that one big thing you speak of and it will seem effortless.

[Kenosha]

Ode to a dying city:

quote: I've seen love go by my door
It's never been this close before
Never been so easy or so slow.
Been shooting in the dark too long
When somethin's not right it's wrong
Yer gonna make me lonesome when you go.

Dragon clouds so high above
I've only known careless love,
It's always hit me from below.
This time around it's more correct
Right on target, so direct,
Yer gonna make me lonesome when you go.

Purple clover, Queen Anne lace,
Crimson hair across your face,
You could make me cry if you don't know.
Can't remember what I was thinkin' of
You might be spoilin' me too much, love,
Yer gonna make me lonesome when you go.

Flowers on the hillside, bloomin' crazy,
Crickets talkin' back and forth in rhyme,
Blue river runnin' slow and lazy,
I could stay with you forever
And never realize the time.

Situations have ended sad,
Relationships have all been bad.
Mine've been like Verlaine's and Rimbaud.
But there's no way I can compare
All those scenes to this affair,
Yer gonna make me lonesome when you go.

Yer gonna make me wonder what I'm doin',
Stayin' far behind without you.
Yer gonna make me wonder what I'm sayin',
Yer gonna make me give myself a good talkin' to.

I'll look for you in old Honolulu,
San Francisco, Ashtabula,
Yer gonna have to leave me now, I know.
But I'll see you in the sky above,
In the tall grass, in the ones I love,
Yer gonna make me lonesome when you go.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by swake

Is Tulsa dying?

Isn't there a thread going on right now, by the same "the sky is falling" crowd, that Tulsa is getting over developed. How can you have too much development going on and be dying at the same time?

Have Shadows or Axo ever posted anything that ever turned out to be correct? Axo is famous for "inside information" that turns out to be crap. Shadows is famous for rambling nonsensical posts that hint at much, and say little and hurt your head when you read them.

No offense Waterboy, but you have been drinking the Stakeholders Kool-Aid. (and Shadow's and Axo man's) You've let your personal distaste for the River Parks Authority drag you into The Stakeholders way of thinking. You've been played, personally. They are using scare tactics of "Tulsa is dying" to get us to back this ludicrous proposal.

For example, a falsehood you have been fed, Tulsa is an uneducated city, it's actually pretty high up in the rankings for the percentage of people over 25 with degrees for large cities, what we lack are people with advanced degrees. That is sad but understandable when we don't have a large research university in town, yet.

What we have is a downtown that is badly in need of help and a metro development pattern gone haywire. These are issues that need to be addressed. Does The Channels address any of that?

As for the over developed thing.  I honestly dont count having too many Targets or whatever near the suburbs as great examples of robust growth lol.  I think one comment in the overdeveloped thread was about BA getting a lifestyle center.  A. thats not Tulsa. B. Where is Tulsas lifestyle center.  Utica Square?  Thats really a sorry excuse for a lifestyle center actually. Not when you have seen some of the places other cities are getting.  I dont think BA getting a lifestyle center, and I will wait to see just how nice a one it is, or Jenks with its half finished one the Riverwalk are again great examples of Tulsa even keeping up with the Jonse's.  

The point also must be made its not what WE who live here think is growth from our perspective. Its how we compare to other cities and what others are now becoming accustomed to, so that when they visit here or want to decide where to go, how do we stack up in comparison.  Getting a new Wal-Mart or a crappy looking shopping center off hwy 75 is hardly anything to crow about.  Its like some small town saying, Oh lookee we are getting another taco bell, but are we becoming over developed with restaurants? Can we support a new taco bell?lol Its sad what we call growth here in Tulsa.

[Hometown]

Last Friday we got a Latin friend to take us to two Tulsa night clubs that cater to 20 something Latinos.  They were both packed with beautiful Latino men and women who were having the times of their lives.  In one club there were many men and so few women that the young men were dancing in groups.  The six or seven women that were there were getting an awful lot of attention.

When you are a 100 years old like me, the site of young folks making memories, stirs some sadness and longing for the days of falling in love and dancing until 2 a.m. and finding the poetry of being young in venerable old Tulsa.  My partner was being kind when he told me that I could still be young in spirit.

Tulsa is changing and it has a future that looks different from its past.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist


We need something to put us on the map. Something that makes us enticing.

I think that one thing Tulsa is missing is what I would call an Element of Romance.

Don't you think that whatever that element is, that it must be an outgrowth of the city's personality? Are we a romantic community? I remember when the Space Needle was built in Seattle and suddenly that city had an icon that said more than any Chamber slogan would ever say. They were futurist thinking, and dramatic. But that was an outgrowth of the city's people. It fit them. My complaint is that we keep trying on personalities like a middle aged woman tries on swim suits. They never seem to fit like they did when they were 18 and they usually don't keep them long.

Once that personality is determined we can do that one big thing you speak of and it will seem effortless.

I really think people could do with watching Michael Moores 'Roger and Me'. If only for the way that Flint tried to pick itself up. Flint by the way is a dying city, Tulsa ain't.

I think Tulsa first needs something to sell before getting its own gimmick. If Flint had got the space needle would Fraser have been based there? or Microsoft? I think not. I'm not having a go waterboy, just agreeing with you.

Thanks for quoting me, by the way. [^]

[yayaya]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

What makes Swake an authority?

My posts speak the truth.

Your posts are arrogant bs....

Speak to what it is that I have said here that is false....


And the fact is the Channels buffoons will use the Tulsa is Dying speach to scare you into support.....and if that does not work they will make you out to be a bad person ala Swake the Snake.

No, axo-you miss the point.  You need attention so badly that you have to comment on everything whether you even have a clue.  Look down your list of topics "Guns!!!,Eureka!!,OUch!,
Povery, Rumor???, Ozone?, It's come down to this!,who cares???, and Better River Plan coming"
Your topics even beg for attention.
Just please try to have something to say that is not a repeat from the paper or just some crazy guess.  
Kinda little boy who cried wolf.  You know, you might actually make a point sometime, but no one will listen if you keep up this constant banter.

[MH2010]

I don't know if I would describe Tulsa as dying.  I think what is happening is more like what has happened in Dallas, Detroit, St. Louis and other cities.  At the current pace, the Tulsa area is becoming more like a Donut.  The City of Tulsa is becoming more like the City of Dallas, the City of Detroit, or the City of St. Louis. People still work there but most people live outside of it and usually spend most of their free time outside of it unless they are going to a major sports game or a major entertainment draw (concert, play, ballet ect.)  Unfortunately, Tulsa does not have a major sports team or a place for major concerts (but the area is being built for them) so the only people that are coming in are for entertainment at the PAC ect.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

I don't know if I would describe Tulsa as dying.  I think what is happening is more like what has happened in Dallas, Detroit, St. Louis and other cities.  At the current pace, the Tulsa area is becoming more like a Donut.  The City of Tulsa is becoming more like the City of Dallas, the City of Detroit, or the City of St. Louis. People still work there but most people live outside of it and usually spend most of their free time outside of it unless they are going to a major sports game or a major entertainment draw (concert, play, ballet ect.)  Unfortunately, Tulsa does not have a major sports team or a place for major concerts (but the area is being built for them) so the only people that are coming in are for entertainment at the PAC ect.

The thing about the donut idea is if you go to France or continental Europe the opposite is true and the suburbs suck, look at the riots in the French suburbs last year. It's nearly impossible to balance growth in the city and suburb, I'm sure people in France are having the same debate as we are just the other way round.

[jtcrissup]

I just moved back to Tulsa and I don't think it is a "dying city" through and through.  There are some very vibrant and exciting parts of town, and there are some very depressing and poor parts of town.  Guess what?  I lived in Austin for the last 6 years and I could say the same thing about Austin!  

The biggest difference I can gather is peoples' attitude about their town.  Everyone in Austin LOVED living there...even the poor homeless people loved it!  Lots of people in Tulsa have a problem with negativity about our beautiful town, and I am not sure where it is coming from.  

I went to D-fest with some of my friends visiting from Austin and all they could say is "Tulsa is way cooler than I expected".  I couldn't get one of my friends from Tulsa to go with us because they just didn't think it would be cool.  Why??  Because Tulsan's have no friggin' pride in their community as a whole, and so no one ever "hears" about Tulsa other than negative stuff.  

Case in point:  No one even bothered to have Oktoberfest (one of the "top 10" such events in the WORLD according to the USA Today) mentioned in the SWA in-flight magazine.  One of my buddies came to Tulsa from Austin for that event and said he had never had so much fun at an Oktoberfest.

Bottom line...if you think Tulsa is "dying" take a look at the following areas:

Brookside - Infill development is popping on Peoria and housing costs are going through the roof in the nearby neighborhoods

Cherry St - Metro lofts are bringing new and exciting options to Tulsans for urban living and there is always a crowd at Full Moon, Kilkenny's, and Gray Snail...all this district needs is a monthly "after hours" street party to get all of the business owners to keep their doors open and encourage shoppers to come check out their wares.

Pearl St - Lots going on here to make a dream come to reality.  Central Park looks amazing and the Village is very impressive (and almost sold out)

Utica Sq - Always a retail anchor, and the Thursday night concerts are always packed in the summer (and you can BYOB!).  Wild Fork is the best place in town for breakfast...bar none.

Blue Dome/Brady - Up and coming hip areas where artists, professionals, and blue collar folks all intersect...if you have not been to Blue Dome Diner or Lola's for lunch, or McNellie's for happy hour, shame on you!

Riverwalk - True this is in Jenks, but it is nice and very family friendly, and it gets people off their butts to actually walk around after dinner/movie.  Plus they have decent free concerts here you can BYOB to, which is nice.

Add all that up and look at all of the half a millon+ houses going up in South Tulsa and the ever rising cost to buy houses in mid town neighborhoods and I think there is a lot of evidence pointing in the opposite dircetion that Tulsa is "Thriving", not "Dying".  

Plus, look at the excitement brewing about new developments (BOk Center, Utica Place Towers) and all the anticipation of developments that may be (River Development possibilities, East End/stadium, etc).

My suggestion...go out and enjoy what we do have versus complaining about what is "missing".  

Try a restaurant that is not part of a national chain.  

Shop at local stores when you go out Christmas shopping.  

Tell a friend about your "cool" experiences with locally owned places.  Especially tell a friend that you know goes to *insert chain restaurant here* on a weekly basis.  

Spread the word that Tulsa IS a cool place and it WILL continue to get better if we make decisions that will positively impact Tulsa and our local economy on a daily basis.

I will stop my rant here, as I think you get the point.  You were asking for evidence that Tulsa is not "dying", let me know if you think this is solid evidence, or if you think I am putting lipstick on a pig.

Thanks
JTC