Tulsa a Dying City?

[TheArtist]

I dont know if ORU really stigmatized Tulsa any more than the dust bowl image has.  If we want an urban, "cool" image we just need to create it, to better promote what we have.  I guarantee you I meet and run into more people who are not extremely religious or who complain about the "religious" types, than I actually run into who are that way.

I think we just need to get over it, move on, and enjoy our lives.  It may very well be that the downturns could have been even worse.  At least ORU and Rhema brought in some people and life to the area.  Who can say if it would have been better without them?  We are a big enough city now to have many different groups.  I think the cityplex is a great anchor for south Tulsa, its still the largest office complex in the state if not the region, and we wouldn't have that if it weren't for ORU. Its been a great economic asett and investment for Tulsa, and mostly paid for by people from out of state lol. Sometimes the Lord works in mysterious ways [].

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by PRH

So you run into people who complain about the charismaniacs too?  I knew I wasn't the only one.

Tell me what's your plan to hide the religious aspect of Tulsa from anyone considering moving to Tulsa?

Are we to hope new Tulsans just won't notice them?

I say we make the evangelicals so uncomfortable that they move to Colorado Springs. Let them ruin another city, as long as it's not Tulsa.

By the way ORU doesn't pay any property taxes, and neither does VICTORY or Rhema, yet they use all of our infrastructure.  

ORU and Rhema are a big churches with a big presence. But when I go to Dallas I see some big churches and evangelical tv type headquarters there, but the city is big enough in other ways to not let them be their "image".  No need to run them out, just keep growing other aspects of our city.  It already appears as though the "good christian folk" are abandoning the central core of Tulsa for the suburbs leaving it to the "evil sinners" anyway[]. So to each his own.

But if you do want to run them off I have an idea. I will set up a fund so people can donate to having my grandmothers "Goddess of Oil" statue made and placed near downtown. "was originally intended, if you dont know the story, to be 40' tall and go where the Golden Driller statue is now but was sidetracked by the war effort" The fundamentalists wont come near it for fear they or their children will see it lol.[8D]

[tulitlikeitis]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Originally posted by PRH

ORU and Rhema are a big churches with a big presence. But when I go to Dallas I see some big churches and evangelical tv type headquarters there,

It is not that other cities do not have these nutcases ... they do. It is just that the density in Tulsa is over the top. That combined with the "okie" is a turn off.

[Sangria]

Oral ROberts - who he really is

Oral and others like him

Let's face it, Oral Roberts made us all like like fools and idiots as he stole from those who needed help most.

Bring on the Goddess of Oil statue. It would be an improvement over fake praying hands.

[sendoff]

quote:I think the cityplex is a great anchor for south Tulsa, its still the largest office complex in the state if not the region, and we wouldn't have that if it weren't for ORU.

I have nothing against ORU and I think they are an asset to the metro area.

However, I think Citiplex has contributed to the decline of downtown and has affected development all around the metro area.

Built as a hospital, Citiplex was never meant to compete with DT Tulsa for office space. Citiplex has over 25% the office space DT has (2.2M sq ft vs 8.1M sq ft) and it has 10% of the total metro office space. It is almost 2 miles from the nearest freeway and opportunites to develop similar office properties nearby are nearly non-existant.

Citiplex is known for offering lower priced leases to keep the place full and the bills paid. This puts downward pressure on all leases in the area.

Plus, as Citiplex is held by a non-profit organization, property taxes are not paid on the facility.

[deinstein]

Yes, Tulsa is a dying city.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

Yes, Tulsa is a dying city.

Call me AFTER you experience OTHER cities... I have... MANY... MANY more than you will most likely EVER experience...

Tulsa is growing... Rochester, NY is a dying city... many, many cities are dying across the country... Tulsa is NOT one of them...

Good luck in your new city.

USRufnex
"forty-something"

[snopes]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

Yes, Tulsa is a dying city.

Call me AFTER you experience OTHER cities... I have... MANY... MANY more than you will most likely EVER experience...

Tulsa is growing... Rochester, NY is a dying city... many, many cities are dying across the country... Tulsa is NOT one of them...

Good luck in your new city.

USRufnex
"forty-something"

DITTO. As someone has in their signature thread on this forum, "Tulsa's finest days are ahead of us."

[Hometown]

That someone is Hometown.

Tulsa is a Capricorn.  Capricorn gets better with time.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by jtcrissup

quote:Originally posted by Sangria

Admit it or not - people are leaving Tulsa in droves. They are moving to Owasso, Bixby , Broken Arrow, Glenpool.

They are buying cheap land further out of Tulsa in the Mounds area. Tulsa is bleeding people and we need to stop the flow.

Perhaps we should be asking those relocaters why they left. It isn't the jobs - they commute to work every day back to Tulsa. So we can make an educated guess - they don't want to raise their family in Tulsa.

First...suburban flight does not equal "dying Tulsa" it equals "thriving Metro".  As these people "move" to the 'burbs it increases our overall ability to provide various types of living scenarios for a wide range of people (which *gasp* is a healthy thing for Tulsa Metro).  For example, if I move to Tulsa from somewhere else I can:

CHOOSE to live in Mounds and run cattle on the side while also working in Tulsa and taking advantage of all of the "big city" things like theatres, restaurants, etc, or

I can CHOOSE to live in the <insert downtown Loft project here> and be within walking distance to my job, places to eat/drink/catch music/etc, or

I can also CHOOSE to move to <insert suburban school community here> and live in a reasonably priced cookie cutter house so my kids will go to a school where I feel they are getting a good education while not being exposed to <insert generic sub-urban myth about "scary" TPS>.  

So, what I am driving at is the Tulsa Metro has a lot of lifestyle options available to people as they move to our little corner of the universe (which like I said is good...people like OPTIONS), and the cost of each option is arrived at by market forces (supply and demand).  If lots of people are lining up to move to Jenks/Owasso/Bixby, the cost of housing goes up (which is happening to the glee of housing/land developers).  If lots of people want convenience/character/history in their surroundings they move to a nice mid town neighborhood and the cost of housing goes up (which is happening at an even quicker pace than in any of the surrounding 'burbs to the glee of area realtors).  

I wish people would STOP segmenting Tulsa Metro into "competing" suburbs who vie for the right to be "fastest growing".  Let's all hold hands and be proud of our region as a great place to call home, not try and belittle our neighbor because they made a different choice in where they live.

End Rant.

Thank you for this post!  Why can't more people in Tulsa see it this way?  It IS okay for the Bass Pro Shop to be in Broken Arrow and for trendy night clubs to be in downtown Tulsa.  In fact, it's better that way.  In OKC, there is the lovely Bricktown that is right next door to the Bass Pro Shop.  How tacky!  What Tulsa needs  to do is encourage both urban and suburban growth-- which ARE two separate things!

[jtcrissup]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

quote:Originally posted by jtcrissup

quote:Originally posted by Sangria

Admit it or not - people are leaving Tulsa in droves. They are moving to Owasso, Bixby , Broken Arrow, Glenpool.

They are buying cheap land further out of Tulsa in the Mounds area. Tulsa is bleeding people and we need to stop the flow.

Perhaps we should be asking those relocaters why they left. It isn't the jobs - they commute to work every day back to Tulsa. So we can make an educated guess - they don't want to raise their family in Tulsa.

First...suburban flight does not equal "dying Tulsa" it equals "thriving Metro".  As these people "move" to the 'burbs it increases our overall ability to provide various types of living scenarios for a wide range of people (which *gasp* is a healthy thing for Tulsa Metro).  For example, if I move to Tulsa from somewhere else I can:

CHOOSE to live in Mounds and run cattle on the side while also working in Tulsa and taking advantage of all of the "big city" things like theatres, restaurants, etc, or

I can CHOOSE to live in the <insert downtown Loft project here> and be within walking distance to my job, places to eat/drink/catch music/etc, or

I can also CHOOSE to move to <insert suburban school community here> and live in a reasonably priced cookie cutter house so my kids will go to a school where I feel they are getting a good education while not being exposed to <insert generic sub-urban myth about "scary" TPS>.  

So, what I am driving at is the Tulsa Metro has a lot of lifestyle options available to people as they move to our little corner of the universe (which like I said is good...people like OPTIONS), and the cost of each option is arrived at by market forces (supply and demand).  If lots of people are lining up to move to Jenks/Owasso/Bixby, the cost of housing goes up (which is happening to the glee of housing/land developers).  If lots of people want convenience/character/history in their surroundings they move to a nice mid town neighborhood and the cost of housing goes up (which is happening at an even quicker pace than in any of the surrounding 'burbs to the glee of area realtors).  

I wish people would STOP segmenting Tulsa Metro into "competing" suburbs who vie for the right to be "fastest growing".  Let's all hold hands and be proud of our region as a great place to call home, not try and belittle our neighbor because they made a different choice in where they live.

End Rant.

Thank you for this post!  Why can't more people in Tulsa see it this way?  It IS okay for the Bass Pro Shop to be in Broken Arrow and for trendy night clubs to be in downtown Tulsa.  In fact, it's better that way.  In OKC, there is the lovely Bricktown that is right next door to the Bass Pro Shop.  How tacky!  What Tulsa needs  to do is encourage both urban and suburban growth-- which ARE two separate things!

Thanks for posting and for the kudos...

[TheArtist]

Building and widening more roads out to the suburbs promotes people living in the suburbs, not them living in the urban areas. As long as its easier to build out not up, people will. As long as it costs less and is easier to build in an empty field than in the central core, people will.  As long as people keep moving out and spreading out, so will the businesses that cater to them.


Money that could be used to improve the urban areas is instead used for building ever more roads, then widening them, paying for upkeep, paying to police larger sprawling areas, more fire departments, sewage/water, and all kinds of other infrastructure and services.  Its not as though the population of the city is growing so rapidly that it really needs to be spending all the money to do that. Its basically the same population just spreading out further and further along with the tax dollars trying to keep up with the sprawl.

When Tulsa was called the most beautiful city in America its central core had population densities of around 3,000 people per square mile. Which makes for a very efficient use of tax dollars to maintain and have the best infrastructure in a small area versus today having people spread out over a much larger area.   Then they complain about traffic and want roads widened and those who want to live in a dense, urban, walkable area are quite hard pressed to find that in Tulsa because there is no longer the density to support it.

The city of Tulsa need not be in the business of promoting suburban growth.  The suburbs are quite capable of doing that. Tulsa needs to spend its time, money and effort promoting urban growth, becoming a city. Trust me, the suburbs will take care of themselves.  

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Building and widening more roads out to the suburbs promotes people living in the suburbs, not them living in the urban areas. As long as its easier to build out not up, people will. As long as it costs less and is easier to build in an empty field than in the central core, people will.  As long as people keep moving out and spreading out, so will the businesses that cater to them.


Money that could be used to improve the urban areas is instead used for building ever more roads, then widening them, paying for upkeep, paying to police larger sprawling areas, more fire departments, sewage/water, and all kinds of other infrastructure and services.  Its not as though the population of the city is growing so rapidly that it really needs to be spending all the money to do that. Its basically the same population just spreading out further and further along with the tax dollars trying to keep up with the sprawl.

When Tulsa was called the most beautiful city in America its central core had population densities of around 3,000 people per square mile. Which makes for a very efficient use of tax dollars to maintain and have the best infrastructure in a small area versus today having people spread out over a much larger area.   Then they complain about traffic and want roads widened and those who want to live in a dense, urban, walkable area are quite hard pressed to find that in Tulsa because there is no longer the density to support it.

The city of Tulsa need not be in the business of promoting suburban growth.  The suburbs are quite capable of doing that. Tulsa needs to spend its time, money and effort promoting urban growth, becoming a city. Trust me, the suburbs will take care of themselves.  

The time when Tulsa could go it alone is long gone. Tulsa's CSA is estimate now at about 940,000 people according to the US Census. That same estimate says the city is down to around 370,000 residents. The people that live in the suburbs now outnumber the people in the city of Tulsa nearly 2 to 1.

The metro is going to sink or swim together, the metro and city are not large enough to have distinct economic bases. The only distinction happens because of Oklahoma's quirk where most city funding is through sales taxes so the actual specific location of retail centers becomes meaningful.

And don't be misled. Tulsa is a big winner in the retail location game. Look at all the retail in Tulsa but right on the edge of the suburbs. This is true for Broken Arrow, Bixby and Jenks. Not to mention all the specialty retail that doesn't exist outside the city. Much more money flows into Tulsa in the form of sales tax coming in from the 'burbs than flows out. Bad road and traffic are only going to make the 570,000 people that live in metro Tulsa but not in the city more likely not to travel into Tulsa.

Tulsa is hurting because the suburbs are keeping more of their own residents sales tax money. But more than that all cities are hurting because more and more services are put on them by the state and feds while they get less and less money from those sources.

The money problem is fixable, cities in Oklahoma can asses income taxes and gas taxes and both would really help the budget, but who would vote for such an expansion of taxes?

The path to a great city to have healthy quality suburbs and quality urban core. And the only reason that Vision 2025 passed, was because it was a countywide vote. The areas outside of the city voted for it, overwhelmingly. Similar issues failed twice as city questions.

If the city and suburbs don't work together, then Tulsa, city and suburban, are in trouble.

[tshane250]

quote:Building and widening more roads out to the suburbs promotes people living in the suburbs, not them living in the urban areas. As long as its easier to build out not up, people will. As long as it costs less and is easier to build in an empty field than in the central core, people will. As long as people keep moving out and spreading out, so will the businesses that cater to them.


Money that could be used to improve the urban areas is instead used for building ever more roads, then widening them, paying for upkeep, paying to police larger sprawling areas, more fire departments, sewage/water, and all kinds of other infrastructure and services. Its not as though the population of the city is growing so rapidly that it really needs to be spending all the money to do that. Its basically the same population just spreading out further and further along with the tax dollars trying to keep up with the sprawl.

When Tulsa was called the most beautiful city in America its central core had population densities of around 3,000 people per square mile. Which makes for a very efficient use of tax dollars to maintain and have the best infrastructure in a small area versus today having people spread out over a much larger area. Then they complain about traffic and want roads widened and those who want to live in a dense, urban, walkable area are quite hard pressed to find that in Tulsa because there is no longer the density to support it.

The city of Tulsa need not be in the business of promoting suburban growth. The suburbs are quite capable of doing that. Tulsa needs to spend its time, money and effort promoting urban growth, becoming a city. Trust me, the suburbs will take care of themselves.

I have to agree with TheArtist here.  It is really fiscally irresponsible to keep building and widening roads when you cannot even maintain the ones that already exist.  Would you add a room onto your house before you fixed the gaping hole in your living room roof?  I think not.  

If people want to live in a hay field thirty miles from where they work that's fine, but they are just going to have to deal with the narrow over crowded roads in the boonies.  If they don't like it then they can move closer to work.  Widening the roads only encourages more wasteful sprawl.  

Sprawl after all costs us all!!!

[rhymnrzn]

The Bible casts the mold for this city Tulsa, who is likened unto Tyre in the following similitude.  Tulsa is destined to become one of the points of convergence for the four corners.

The parable contained in the following passage is accurate and multifaceted: I recommend the readers to meditate upon it.

Isaiah 23:1

"The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them. (v.2) Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished. (v.3)  And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, is her revenue; and she is a mart of nations. (v.4) Be thou ashamed, O Zidon: for the sea hath spoken, even the strength of the sea, saying, I travail not, nor bring forth children, neither do I nourish up young men, nor bring up virgins. (v.5) As at the report concerning Egypt, so shall they be sorely pained at the report of Tyre. (v.6) Pass ye over to Tarshish; howl, ye inhabitants of the isle. (v.7) Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her afar off to sojourn. (v. Who hath taken this counsel against Tyre, the crowning city, whose merchants are princes, whose traffickers are the honourable of the earth? (v.9) The LORD of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth. (v.10) Pass through thy land as a river, O daughter of Tarshish: there is no more strength. (v.11) He stretched out his hand over the sea, he shook the kingdoms: the LORD hath given a commandment against the merchant city, to destroy the strong holds thereof. (v.12) And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon: arise, pass over to Chittim; there also shalt thou have no rest. (v.13) Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, till the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; and he brought it to ruin. (v.14) Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for your strength is laid waste. (v.15) And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. (v.16) Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. (v.17) And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth. (v.18) And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD: it shall not be treasured nor laid up; for her merchandise shall be for them that dwell before the LORD, to eat sufficiently, and for durable clothing."

When we link these traits, we realize that this Tyre is a shadow of the image, and a daughter of the Mother, of the MYSTERY BABYLON, who would be revealed in the last time.


We are in the middle of it all.