Judges should be appointed - not elected

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Being an attorney is essentially a trade, not unlike a plumber, electrician, or carpenter. In all these vocations, you get some schooling (vo-ed or law school), then have an apprenticeship before they turn you out in the real world.

What apprenticeship for lawyers are you referring to? The process I followed was completing law school and passing the bar. I do believe there should be an apprenticeship of some sort for lawyers, however, since "law school" is focused on teaching the law and not on being a lawyer. Stated otherwise, there are no "lawyer schools" out there.
Being a lawyer is more than knowing the law, which to your credit you pointed out in your post.

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

The process I followed was completing law school and passing the bar.

So are you also an engineer by any chance?

[rwarn17588]

I'd say law school and passing the bar, especially the latter, are certainly strenuous.

Plus the fact that most law school students also are accepted in internship programs, which also provide plenty of real-world experience.

[shadows]

In a recent  visit to the doctor there was a question on visible signs of an affliction of an age old ailment.   I took with me to his office the printout from the internet; some twenty pages with pictures and the information that was available from some of the leading physicians from all over the country.    The doctor called in an associate for further advise.   The associate after scanning the internet pictures and articles of leading well known doctors ask if he could copy the information which I said that it was available to  me on the internet for reprinting and he could have those copies..  

The recorders that adorn the walls bookcases of the law office today are ready for the trash cans as with the portable scanner they are recorded on the mainframes for instant recall and printing,   To who have  a case through its source requires hours of research whereas; it requires minutes to printout the case law that determines the future of the accused or the assumed facts of law in litigations.

The citizen-lawyers, such as Lincoln, who served two terms in the state legislation before he studied law from the light of the fireplace to pass the bar examination .
 
The same information is available to the citizen as written in the available books that are studied in the law schools of today.  The obstacle of the required college hours that must be acquired (including football) has stopped many citizens from taking and passing the bar examination.   Up until recent years an application could be made to take the bar examination from mail order studies.  This same once practice should also be re-installed at the internet level.   If this were to happen the patriotism in appointing judges would have to be revisited.

The acquired field experience of the plumber and electrician far outdistances the newbe with a bar certificate looking for the courthouse.    

[Trams]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

That does not mean I advocate citizen lawyering -- not by a long shot. Being an attorney is essentially a trade, not unlike a plumber, electrician, or carpenter. . . .
A citizen acting as his own attorney is so fraught with peril I can't see anyone who's in his right mind would do it. I see no point in clogging up the courts with citizen-lawyers who are learning on the fly and making court cases proceed at a snail's pace.

If a lawyer is accused of a crime, you know what happens? He calls another lawyer. You know why? Because another lawyer who has some distance from the case can think of angles that the accused lawyer may have overlooked.

I couldn't agree more fully.  At a basic level, the procedural rules alone would be enough to trip up a citizen-lawyer.  What if you file your motion late?  What if you fail to describe your claim with particularity?  What if you file in the wrong court?  The court system is bogged down enough without having to deal with these procedural nightmares caused by failure to understand the mulititude of applicable rules.  

Also, the law can be very complex substantively.  Can the average citizen lawyer understand the complexities of governmental regulation, ERISA, anti-trust, agency law?  

The term "citizen-lawyering" has a quaint idealism ... but it is simply not realistic, and would result in diastrous consequences for both the individual and the system.

[rwarn17588]

Shadows cited Lincoln as a citizen-lawyer. Lincoln is the exception that proves the rule that citizen lawyering is a bad idea.

Lincoln was one of the most brilliant minds in history; it's big stretch to assume that other citizen-lawyers would be as successful as he was. (And yes, he was a successful lawyer ... historians and attorneys in my native Illinois in recent years have been poring over his legal work and have noted that he was well ahead of his time.)

[shadows]

There are many instants where the citizen-lawyer prevailed in repeals before the OSC,    There are many citizen-lawyers that could prevail in a unbiased court.   There are many law diplomas issued to persons that would make better plumbers.  The old cliché that he who acts as his attorney "has a fool as and attorney" is protecting the turf.   To file a petition with the county court clerk equals taking a golf club down  to the elate closed membership golf course to practice on their turf.  Any one can attend law school if they waver their right to petition the court to take the bar examination.  

[tulitlikeitis]

quote:Originally posted by shadows

There are many instants where the citizen-lawyer prevailed in repeals before the OSC,    There are many citizen-lawyers that could prevail in a unbiased court.   There are many law diplomas issued to persons that would make better plumbers.  The old cliché that he who acts as his attorney "has a fool as and attorney" is protecting the turf.   To file a petition with the county court clerk equals taking a golf club down  to the elate closed membership golf course to practice on their turf.  Any one can attend law school if they waver their right to petition the court to take the bar examination.  

I think plumbers could do a better job at writing and spelling than this joker. Corrections noted below:

1. " ... prevailed in APPEALS "

2. Cliche is "anyone who acts as his own attorney has a fool for a client"

3. " ... to the ELITE closed membership"

4. " ... if they WAIVE their right"

[shadows]

You are possiibly right..  New computer with spell check that inserts the word and this joker didn't check the spell checker.  Sorry but at least I know someone outthere is checking.

[guido911]

RW "Plus the fact that most law school students also are accepted in internship programs, which also provide plenty of real-world experience."

Where are you getting your information about lawyers and law school? First you talk about non-existent apprenticeships and now you believe most law students are accepted in internships where they receive "real-world experience." Maybe things have changed since I was in law school. CONAN or IP, you out there? Am I forgetting something?  

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

RW "Plus the fact that most law school students also are accepted in internship programs, which also provide plenty of real-world experience."

Where are you getting your information about lawyers and law school? First you talk about non-existent apprenticeships and now you believe most law students are accepted in internships where they receive "real-world experience." Maybe things have changed since I was in law school. CONAN or IP, you out there? Am I forgetting something?  

He might be referring to law students who "clerk" for law firms.  I don't know what the overall percentage of students are who do this, it's not a requisite, but sure helps give them a better idea of what "lawyering" is all about.

[guido911]

Thx Conan. I thought that's what RW was referring to as well. Still, my recollection was that not many law students accepted these positions, primarily because of the limitations on the number of hours law students could work while attending school.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Trams



Judicial appointment is probably a good procedure.  If you are a litigant, I assure you that you want an impartial arbiter presiding over your case.  You don't want a judge who has a political allegience to a particular point of view or to certain political parties or certain politicians.  I am not so naive as to believe that personal views and predilections do not affect appointed judge's decisions ... but the potential is much less likely, and the appearance of impropriety is diminished.

Unless I've mis-read the intention of your statement, appointed judges are nominated for appointment by governors and presidents.  Those appointees generally are picked because they reflect the political and social views of the person appointing them- think Supreme Court nominees.  Conservative presidents pick conservative justices, liberal presidents pick liberal justices.  To me, that is a perfect example of partisanship on the bench.

I can't say I'm overly comfortable allowing a very miniscule and partisan portion (President and Senate) of our population to be the final say over who presides over our system of federal justice- especially at times where the president and senate majority belong to the same party.  Or for that matter our governor and state legislature deciding on state-level judges.

That said, I also believe that less than 10% of all Americans truly put any thought into their participation in our political and voting systems.  Very few people take the time to fully research a candidate beyond a sound bite or headline, and in the judicial system, most judges operate in relative anonymity to the general public.

I believe that judges being elected through non-partisan elections is the best way to get impartial judges rather than being appointed via ideology that is in lock-step with whomever nominates them or outright cronyism.  Just IMHO.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Thx Conan. I thought that's what RW was referring to as well. Still, my recollection was that not many law students accepted these positions, primarily because of the limitations on the number of hours law students could work while attending school.

Where the heck has IP been?  What's it been now a month?

[rwarn17588]

He's been really scarce since the election.

Methinks he was a Republican.