13th & Harvard McDonalds

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

It's a McDonalds.

And what appears to be a plan that many of us should like -- building pushed up to the sidewalk, respects the setback of neighboring buildings, parking in back, used the slope of the lot to create a retaining wall buffer for the neighborhood. If they keep their lighting pointed the right direction and their drive-thru speaker at reasonable volume, should be a good neighbor.

Drove around that block Saturday night.  Couldnt find the curb on Indianapolis... had there been a parked car there...

I have to say that even if the lights were properly aimed, there comes a point where aiming is almost irrelevant when you are using dozens of 1,000-watt floodlights.
...But those lights (on tall poles that project well over the embankment and "privacy" fence) are pretty much at 45-degree angles in all directions.  When you consider the floodlight beam spread is well in excess of 100-degrees tall, the math doesnt favor the neighborhoods quality of life or safety.

Without exaggeration, it's one of the worst examples of what Zoning code 1303-C was intended to address, and I invite anyone to drive by and make their own observations.
Emergency rooms arent lit this bright.
Ill post some pictures this week.

[aoxamaxoa]

Hey! What F and M wants, F and M gets....

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

It's a McDonalds.

And what appears to be a plan that many of us should like -- building pushed up to the sidewalk, respects the setback of neighboring buildings, parking in back, used the slope of the lot to create a retaining wall buffer for the neighborhood. If they keep their lighting pointed the right direction and their drive-thru speaker at reasonable volume, should be a good neighbor.

Drove around that block Saturday night.  Couldnt find the curb on Indianapolis... had there been a parked car there...

I have to say that even if the lights were properly aimed, there comes a point where aiming is almost irrelevant when you are using dozens of 1,000-watt floodlights.
...But those lights (on tall poles that project well over the embankment and "privacy" fence) are pretty much at 45-degree angles in all directions.  When you consider the floodlight beam spread is well in excess of 100-degrees tall, the math doesnt favor the neighborhoods quality of life or safety.

Without exaggeration, it's one of the worst examples of what Zoning code 1303-C was intended to address, and I invite anyone to drive by and make their own observations.
Emergency rooms arent lit this bright.
Ill post some pictures this week.

Sorry to hear that. I hate obnoxious lighting. Shouldn't be allowed.

[patric]

This is the residential neighborhood along Indianapolis Ave behind the McDonalds.  I dont think it's a happy place now [V]


Not even a privacy fence on the residential side shields light trespass this severe.

The mist near the floodlights gives you an idea as to how huge their beam spread is, and why floodlights should never be used when businesses actually care about controlling indiscriminate spill light.

[circassia]

You can almost make out my car in those pics. The light pollution is bad, but in some defense it does add some security having light filter towards our dark backyard area.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by circassia

The light pollution is bad, but in some defense it does add some security having light filter towards our dark backyard area.

If you have to use thick curtains to block the light trespass in the front, is it really a good trade-off?  
I spent about a half hour taking various angles, mostly in people's driveways.  Did anyone notice me walking back and forth among all their parked cars?  For all intents and purposes, I was invisible.

[Rowdy]

You could operate in the street with that brightness.

[cannon_fodder]

That's pretty crappy of them.  I'm sure a McDonald's isnt an ideal neighbor, but is it better than an abandoned bank drive-thru?

I'd probably want the bank back I suppose.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by Rowdy

You could operate in the street with that brightness.

It's also keeping the streetlight on the corner from turning on (to give you some idea how bright it is there).  Looks like public housing now.

[Dana431]

Has anybody from the neighborhood complained about the lights yet?

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by Dana431

Has anybody from the neighborhood complained about the lights yet?

Yes, from what I gather from an electrical inspector.  

Since McD uses a dozen 1,000-watt floodlights to 'outshine' the competition, it wont be as simple a fix as if it were your neighbor's errant backyard light (but I suspect they already knew that and took a chance no one would stand up for the neighborhood).

Correcting a violation that severe will likely involve modifications that utilize shielded (Full-Cutoff) lighting, much reduced intensity, an overnight curfew of non-essential fixtures, using the the Kennebunkport Formula for abating nuisance light, or any combination of the above necessary to accomplish compliance with city zoning.

[perspicuity85]

As we near Christmas, I can't help but think of Chevy Chase's Christmas Vacation movie.

Good luck with your zoning investigation.  If that falls through you would probably have a shot at suing the McDonald's franchisee to cover the cost of a buffer between them and your neighborhood.  The court would possibly see the lights as an object occupying physical space on your property.

[PonderInc]

As a comparison, drive around Hilcrest Hospital at night sometime.  They have the best lighting in town.  Totally shielded, no light pollution, but every area is well lit.  (You don't have to simulate the light of the sun to make an area safe and well lit at night.)  This should be our model for how ALL parking lots should be lit....regardless of whether they abut residential streets or not.  

Lights that shine horizontally are not safe because they blind drivers and pedestrians, make life miserable for older people, and the sharp light creates deep shadows in which you can see nothing.  Not to mention they're just frickin' annoying!

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

As a comparison, drive around Hilcrest Hospital at night sometime.  They have the best lighting in town.  Totally shielded, no light pollution, but every area is well lit.

Isnt that amazing? []
Hillcrest is a good example, as is St John's Hospital and just about all our area hospitals. (VA hospitals seem to be the glaring exception though).

The difference between outdoor lighting at a hospital and a fast-food place is, while they both say they're lighting for safety, the hospital's priority is to help people see while the burger joint's priority is to be seen.

...and somehow hospitals make lighting work even for patients with less-than-perfect vision or severe night blindness.  Without glare or outrageous light levels, pedestrian areas are not only more eye-friendly but inviting spaces to use at night (something we missed with the "pocket park" idea, among others).

Businesses will fear-monger their "need" for more and brighter lights, but sometimes it takes a night stroll through the hospital grounds to bring us back down to earth.

[PonderInc]

I drove by this McDonalds today.  It was overcast and the lights were on during the day.  They were BLINDING!  At noon!  Looking at them hurt my eyes as I drove down Harvard!  I don't know why they need bulbs this bright...and the angle of the light fixtures is ridiculous.  (Next time, I'm going to wear shorts and see if I can get a tan and some hair removal just by walking under them!)

Do lighting ordinances fall under the comprehensive plan?  If so, we need to make sure the city includes lighting guidelines in the new CP.  I was just in Austin a few weeks ago, and it was refreshing to be in a city with an obvious understanding of the importance of smart lighting!