Let's talk about the east end of downtown

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

You left out your guarantee!

What I originally said was that they were "guaranteed potential customers."  I was guaranteeing that the 5,000 people would be potential customers.

[TheArtist]

Oh good lord lol.

[okiebybirth]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85


Third, national attendance and TV viewing for baseball is much higher than soccer.  I think we can all deductively say that without any in-depth study.  I know Tulsa has a lot of soccer fans, but I doubt the demand for pro soccer is as high as pro baseball.  Tulsa has had minor league baseball in some form for almost 100 years.  We've also hosted an OU/OSU game in Tulsa for as long as I can remember.

I'm trying to remember the last time I saw a nationally televised Drillers game.  Maybe I'm too young to remember it?  Saying a minor league team from the Texas League with 5,000 fans a game is obviously going to be bring in more revenue than a MLS professional soccer team where 15,000 or more a game is a definite probability isn't something you can throw out there and expect everyone to swallow hook, line and sinker.  And what about the benefits of television exposure?  Where are all those baseball games in Tulsa on television?  I can deductively say that you'd see more soccer games of a Tulsa MLS team on television than you'll ever see of a minor league Driller's game.  You're deductions are lacking in that area obviously. If you want to present something as fact, back it up.
 I'm not knocking the Drillers because they are a important part of this city's history, but don't go throwing out statements you can't back up.

[PonderInc]

Is it possible to talk about east end development without devolving always into arguments about soccer and baseball?  (Note: I go to minor league baseball games about once/decade.  Last time I went to see major league soccer was in 1977.) (Though I did eat at Charlie Mitchell's until it closed...) (Perhaps instead of a sports venue, we just need good bar/restaurants owned by former athletes...)

Such divisiveness!  

Soccer/baseball, farmer/cattleman, ballet/pole dancing.

The future is petanque!
http://www.petanque.org/

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by okiebybirth

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85


Third, national attendance and TV viewing for baseball is much higher than soccer.  I think we can all deductively say that without any in-depth study.  I know Tulsa has a lot of soccer fans, but I doubt the demand for pro soccer is as high as pro baseball.  Tulsa has had minor league baseball in some form for almost 100 years.  We've also hosted an OU/OSU game in Tulsa for as long as I can remember.

I'm trying to remember the last time I saw a nationally televised Drillers game.  Maybe I'm too young to remember it?  Saying a minor league team from the Texas League with 5,000 fans a game is obviously going to be bring in more revenue than a MLS professional soccer team where 15,000 or more a game is a definite probability isn't something you can throw out there and expect everyone to swallow hook, line and sinker.  And what about the benefits of television exposure?  Where are all those baseball games in Tulsa on television?  I can deductively say that you'd see more soccer games of a Tulsa MLS team on television than you'll ever see of a minor league Driller's game.  You're deductions are lacking in that area obviously. If you want to present something as fact, back it up.
 I'm not knocking the Drillers because they are a important part of this city's history, but don't go throwing out statements you can't back up.

I never said the Drillers were ever or ever will be on television.  What I did say is that more people follow baseball than soccer.  Based on the fact that the major TV networks broadcast baseball games during prime-time viewing hours instead of soccer games, I can deduct that there is more of an interest in watching baseball than soccer.  No, I do not have the acutal TV ratings numbers for soccer and baseball games, but why else would ESPN and ABC be covering MLB, and ESPN2 be covering soccer at the same time?

You also missed my other point, which was the fact that there may never be an MLS team in Tulsa.  We aren't building the arena just gambling on the possibility of an NBA or NHL team coming to Tulsa, we built it as a multi-use facility.  MLS stadiums can be used for soccer only.  Right now we have a proven product in the Tulsa Drillers that can occupy a brand new baseball stadium immediately after it's built.  Yes, I do agree that a MLS team would generate much greater average attendance than the Drillers, but to say we will ever get an MLS team is pure speculation.  Right now in Tulsa, a baseball stadium is a much more secure investment than a soccer stadium.  Instead of television exposure and revenue generated from 15,000 fans, one could conceivably get absolutely nothing if an MLS team didn't come to Tulsa.
I would love to see MLS in Tulsa, but building a facility that can only be used to house a team that we may never actually get is simply a bad investment.  If there was any evidence that Tulsa was being seriously considered for an MLS franchise, I would agree with you.

[okiebybirth]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85




I never said the Drillers were ever or ever will be on television.  What I did say is that more people follow baseball than soccer.  

People do follow baseball more than soccer, but we aren't comparing MLB to MLS here in Tulsa.  We are comparing Texas minor league baseball to MLS and the economics behind both.

quote:
You also missed my other point, which was the fact that there may never be an MLS team in Tulsa.

You are catching this discussion in the middle.  TulsaNow had on their main page an argument about funding a downtown soccer stadium when there was a discussion about GDP using a soccer stadium as the center for the East End.  At that time, a MLS team was very much in the works.  As it stands, I'm in favor of a baseball field downtown since a MLS team is nowhere in sight, but the NIMBY comments when it was going to be a soccer stadium still leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

quote:  MLS stadiums can be used for soccer only.  

That statement is simply not true.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Not trying to be anti-soccer here...

Your argument is that The Tulsa soccer team drew bigger crowds than the Tulsa minor league baseball team.

For argument sake, your attendence figures are for a team that played over 20 years ago. Everything in the world has changed in that time.

They only played 15 home games a year. If they averaged 20,000 fans per game, they would be equal to the 300,000 the Drillers do.

I would love a multi-use stadium and I am sure the Drillers owuld play in one.

But the NASL soccer league demands the stadium be soccer only and that makes a proven commodity like baseball to be preferred by me.

Maybe recycle is flat out wrong about the soccer-only thing.  He did mention the NASL and not the MLS.  However, I have read other on-line articles that mention the requirement of a soccer-specific stadium, like this one: http://www.ussoccerplayers.com/rno/city082003.html

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by okiebybirth


People do follow baseball more than soccer, but we aren't comparing MLB to MLS here in Tulsa.  We are comparing Texas minor league baseball to MLS and the economics behind both.

You are catching this discussion in the middle.  TulsaNow had on their main page an argument about funding a downtown soccer stadium when there was a discussion about GDP using a soccer stadium as the center for the East End.  At that time, a MLS team was very much in the works.  As it stands, I'm in favor of a baseball field downtown since a MLS team is nowhere in sight, but the NIMBY comments when it was going to be a soccer stadium still leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

Like you said, currently a MLS team is nowhere in sight.  That is why it would today be a poor investment to build a soccer stadium over a baseball stadium.  That was what my point was about the economic factors, you can't invest in something because it should have happened.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

Maybe recycle is flat out wrong about the soccer-only thing.  He did mention the NASL and not the MLS.  However, I have read other on-line articles that mention the requirement of a soccer-specific stadium, like this one: http://www.ussoccerplayers.com/rno/city082003.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer-specific_stadium

"Soccer-specific stadium (SSS) is a term used mainly in the United States and Canada. It was coined by Lamar Hunt to refer to a sports stadium whose primary (but not only) purpose is to host soccer matches. An SSS may host other events such as other sporting events (mostly lacrosse and gridiron football), drum and bugle corps competitions, and concerts, but the design and purpose of an SSS is centered on soccer.

Still, these facilities often face criticism from fans in that they tend to be optimized for staging concerts, often resulting in one section of the stadium behind a goal having very few seats, if any. Instead, a berm or other feature is created where concert stages could be placed without destroying the main field."


This is getting silly; Driller Park is a BASEBALL-specific stadium... the ballparks in OKC and Memphis and Indianapolis, et al, as well as any double-A ballpark to be located in the "East End" would also be "BASEBALL specific"...

When "soccer-specific" PaeTec Park was constructed last year in Rochester, NY; Frontier Field (the home of Rochester's AAA ballclub) went from being "multi-purpose" to BASEBALL ONLY.  The lacrosse team moved to PaeTec, the drum and bugle corps contests moved to PaeTec and any number of other events also moved there...

Heck, add about 8,000 seats to the visitors stands at the new Wantland Field down the turnpike in Edmond and PRESTO, CHANGE-O... Edmond will have Oklahoma's first/only "soccer specific" stadium...

Think of ANY stadium deal proposed with Major League Soccer in mind as alot like Vision 2025 and Boeing; simply put, no 20,000 seat "soccer specific" stadium will be built anywhere in the USA unless MLS agrees to house a team there; the same has always been true for Tulsa... if memory serves, the 1997 Tulsa Project only provided for a half-baked 5,000 seat soccer/track&field facility that would NOT have landed an MLS team...

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE


Good post.

--Ruf rolls over, let's AJ scratch behind his ears, and offers AJ his favorite chewy toy--

Or maybe not.

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by Chris

I agree with Ruf and have trouble understanding how his point of how much more "multi-use" a soccer stadium can be compared to a baseball field. I think you guys have been drinking to much of that baseball-fueling bong water.

First, get your own line.

Why should he?  You've had no problems ripping off my lines.

quote:
Second (and for the umpteenth time), a baseball stadium is more multi-use than a soccer field based on the dimension of the field. You can fit a football or soccer field into a baseball stadium, but you can't fit a baseball field in a soccer pitch, unless one entire side of the stands is retractable or temporary.

And again (for the umpteenth time), just because a baseball field can technically be set up for football/soccer doesn't mean it's going to be used for those sports... minor league ballparks are HORRIBLE venues for football and soccer.  Best seats for baseball are the WORST seats for ALL other sports.... Midland, TX has a AA ballpark a block from a 15,000 seat football/soccer stadium that looks much like the 20k "soccer specific" stadium that had been proposed last year by Global...

http://www.midlandtexas.gov/departments/parks_recre/sportscomplex.html


Please read the calendar of events below and tell me which of the two stadiums in Midland, TX is more "multi-use"
http://www.midlandtexas.gov/departments/parks_recre/pdf/events_2006-2007.pdf

quote:
I've said this to Ruf several times, but he either doesn't believe me or ignores it -- I'd love to see Tulsa land a MLS franchise. It would be great for the city and I believe we'd support it here. I just think a soccer-specific facility would be best built outside of downtown with a couple dozen soccer fields built around it for youth soccer. Studies have shown that there is demand for those fields, and it would be a great fit.

With friends like you, who needs enemas...

You keep putting any proposal for soccer in a neat little box... Tulsa's $200,000 feasability study by Conventions, Sports & Leisure from 2002 mentioned TWO feasable options for a RECOMENDED soccer stadium; one downtown w/o the fields and one in southeast Tulsa WITH the youth fields....

Those youth fields are now being constructed using funds from the Third Penny.... and they're going to be around Mohawk Park.  I don't know ANYONE who thinks a 20,000 seat stadium next to the soccer complex at Mohawk would be a good fit over a more accessible downtown location....(with the possible exceptions of you and the anti-soccer Tulsa Now board member who used a Mohawk Park location as a red herring while he misleadingly signed on using "Admin" and "TulsaNow" as his own personal sockpuppets)

quote:And if something should ever happen to the pro team, we'd still be able to use the whole complex. If it were built downtown and the team moved or the league folded, we'd have a 20,000 seat stadium with no tenant creating this huge hole in downtown.

Hey, great behind the curve thinking there... the soccer stadium would be used for football and would be much more appropriate for state playoffs than an 8,000 seat ballpark.  BUT GOD FORBID TULSA EVER TAKE ANY CHANCES... no risk = no reward.  Soccer is here to stay.  If MLS died, USL-1 would take its place... and USL-1 already has soccer stadiums for its teams in Charleston, SC; Rochester, NY; Atlanta; construction of one in Montreal; another proposed for downtown Vancouver...
http://www.uslsoccer.com/

quote:Building a baseball stadium downtown is a no-brainer.

Got that right... it's for people who have no brains... and no vision.  All you're doing is robbing one area to provide for another... a big tax shell game.  And it cements Tulsa as a minor league city that is ten years behind OKC and Memphis.  Those cities have "baseball histories" far superior to that of Tulsa.

quote: It's a model that has worked countless times across the country. Baseball and downtowns just go together -- good weather for strolling around, no tailgating tradition like football/soccer, ballpark architecture "fits" well.

Please give an example of a downtown mixed-use project with 40 acres for housing/retail/entertainment next door to a minor-league ballpark.... because the OKC and Memphis ballparks are in entertainment areas only and do not have 800 units of residential proposed in the same project...

quote:Tulsa has a 100 year history of supporting minor league baseball.... BLAH BLAH BLAH...

Tulsa baseball has a history of MEDIOCRITY.... period.  Nothing special or unique.  End of story.

During its years in the North American Soccer League..... the city of Tulsa had HIGHER PER CAPITA SUPPORT FOR PRO SOCCER THAN ANY OTHER CITY IN AMERICA.

Tulsa and Memphis both joined the NASL in 1978... by 1979 and 1980, Tulsa had drawn more than double the number of fans per game over Memphis...
http://www.kenn.com/sports/soccer/nasl/index.html

quote:A new stadium for the Drillers downtown makes a lot more sense on almost every level.

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

I had friends from Chicago come in.... ooh, can't wait to take them to a double-A downtown ballpark to watch Tulsa play Springfield or Midland... oh, pinch me... wait, is that urine I smell downtown, or is it Average Joe marking his territory?

Geez.  Tulsa versus New York downtown... Tulsa versus Chicago downtown... Tulsa versus Dallas, Tulsa versus Houston, Tulsa versus DC United, MLS All-star game from Tulsa, etc... a downtown soccer stadium would be SUPERIOR in many ways over a behind-the-times minor league ballpark.  A soccer stadium is MUCH more appropriate as a compliment for an eclectic area that would fill in around it..... tried to find a baseball shirt at McNellie's but they didn't have any..... did get a soccer jersey with a McNellie's logo/soccer ball though... []

And Major League Soccer would attract many more fans from outside Tulsa than the Drillers would... minor league baseball is casual entertainment-- who would travel more than an hour to go see AA baseball?  I went to a few Indianapolis Indians games at Victory Field-- I couldn't tell you who won, and I didn't care who was in first place or if the club was having a good year... just pass the nachos...

Media exposure/coverage.  Minor league baseball has next to none.  Out of town media will broadcast from downtown Tulsa.  And Tulsa has a local gem in Winnercomm... http://www.winnercomm.com/2006/

quote:Major League Soccer
When Major League Soccer took to the pitch for the first time in 1996, Winnercomm was there. Every MLS telecast that has aired on ABC Sports, ESPN and ESPN2 has been a Winnercomm production. The personnel, the facilities, the graphics – all from the company that has produced more televised soccer than anyone since 1997. From the first play of the match to the final whistle, no one knows how to present soccer on television better than Winnercomm.

And we may no longer be talking about just American media.... after today's news, the Euro press will be here covering the sport... that could have been great exposure for downtown Tulsa... and McNellies, while we're at it...

http://sports.yahoo.com/sow/news?slug=reu-beckhamdc&prov=reuters&type=lgns

Let's see... which would have more of a positive impact on downtown Tulsa?  A game featuring the Los Angeles Galaxy with David Beckham or yet another game between the Drillers and the Springfield Cardinals...

And it was WE SOCCER FANS who attracted Global Development Partners to Tulsa in the first place.  If Tulsa had only drawn 9000 fans for that 2003 MLS exhibition game rather than the 14,000, guess what?  Global probably wouldn't have shown any interest in Tulsa... and what if Tulsa hadn't had a detailed feasibility study available to Global that could be compared to about a dozen other cities?

Well, WE SOCCER FANS did pretty good on the study too... so why the H-E-double-hockey-sticks do you, AJ, think you're so smart as to tell Global Development Partners what to do?  Global doesn't do suburban soccer theme parks... their resume includes urban mixed use... and their original plan for the soccer stadium/mixed use could have been truly special.... if only the locals decided to fully own a team rather than rely on Global to buy it for them...

Instead of spending duplicate millions to hire Bing Thom, (for both The Channels and the Kaiser Foundation) money could be better spent hiring this guy to be an advocate for Tulsa's MLS hopes...
Peter Wilt
http://www.90soccer.com/news/200506160005.shtml

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE


Good post.

--Ruf rolls over, let's AJ scratch behind his ears, and offers AJ his favorite chewy toy--

Or maybe not.

It's a shame you can't take a sincere compliment. Not my problem though.

Ruf, your posts get longer, more rambling, and in some ways more deranged with each one you make. Seriously, don't go giving yourself a stroke over this. We disagree over a soccer-stadium, buddy. This ain't life and death.

You wanted us to take the high risk plan. I didn't. I think in the grand scheme of things, a baseball park is a better fit for downtown. You don't. You aren't fond of the suburban, multi-field complex. I think it's a good fit for Tulsa.

Neither one of us is wrong. There is no one right answer.

However, I seem to be enjoying the spirited debate more than you. No need to come apart at the seams. Hell, if I ever met ya, I'd buy you a beverage and give you grief in person, too. We're too good at it not to spar. []

[perspicuity85]

Average Joe-- if I'm interpreting your posts correctly, I'd say you're on the same page I am.    If a deal was in place with MLS to put a soccer franchise in Tulsa, I'd vote for the soccer stadium over the baseball stadium every time.  MLS is definitely the most-likely major league to present itself in Tulsa, and it would do wonders for that Tulsa marketing I so frequently post about.  But before people will invest in a soccer stadium, we'll need a real commitment from MLS and a combination of corporate and community support.  I would love to see Tulsa-based companies like Nordam, SemGroup, and QuikTrip get involved and really push the issue with MLS.  Just because it wasn't a secure enough investment to build a soccer stadium in the East End doesn't mean this is a dead issue.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE


It's a shame you can't take a sincere compliment. Not my problem though.

Ruf, your posts get longer, more rambling, and in some ways more deranged with each one you make. Seriously, don't go giving yourself a stroke over this. We disagree over a soccer-stadium, buddy. This ain't life and death.

There you go again... you offer a "sincere complement" when it suits your downtown baseball stadium agenda.  Then, you refuse to address the numerous points I've made refuting  your opinion that "a new stadium for the Drillers downtown makes a lot more sense on almost every level."  

"Rambing?"  "Deranged?"
 
Could you be a little more condescending?

quote:
You wanted us to take the high risk plan. I didn't. I think in the grand scheme of things, a baseball park is a better fit for downtown. You don't. You aren't fond of the suburban, multi-field complex. I think it's a good fit for Tulsa.

You just can't stop resorting to your little giftbag of half truths on this subject and have been doing so for months and months.  But I guess it's okay... nobody can call you on it since all responses to threads over 2 months old have been systematically deleted from this forum.

If somebody came up with a great idea for a suburban/multi-field complex that wouldn't involve new regressive sales taxes on working Tulsans to build it, I'd LOVE to see the plans for something like that.  Sounds like a job for DESCO or Wal-Mart... or Heavenly Hospitality...

But the Third Penny tax has already provided the funding for a new multi-field complex by Mohawk Park.  If you'd like to start arguing for a taxpayer funded soccer stadium at Mohawk Park, be my guest... just don't expect me to fall for it, though.  That'd be a cheap ploy.

quote:
Neither one of us is wrong. There is no one right answer.

That's mighty white of ya'.

You consistently post your opinions on this subject as if they were fact.  I post my strong opinions understanding they may be unconventional and make sure those opinions have a steady stream of facts to back them up.

quote:However, I seem to be enjoying the spirited debate more than you. No need to come apart at the seams. Hell, if I ever met ya, I'd buy you a beverage and give you grief in person, too. We're too good at it not to spar. []

Far too many people (incl. AJ) took a big 'ol smelly dump on this very same project last year when it contained a stadium for soccer that would've had a concert stage on one end...

Sorry, perspi... Joe's position has always been in favor of either a baseball stadium or no stadium at all in the East End over any prospects of MLS soccer ever being played there... even if it meant losing the entire project.  In his argument FOR a soccer stadium/youth field complex (if you can call it that), he knows full well that the city's already building the recommended youth soccer complex next to Mohawk and that starting over for a suburban style soccer stadium/youth complex development would set back any chances Tulsa had for Major League Soccer a good 5-10 years.

Sad, but true.

Truth and opinion make for good debate... half-truth and hyperbole do not.

[Rico]

Ruf... I guess you can't tell by my position on a Soccer field Downtown... but I actually grew up in Countries where that was the primary sport..

My opinion of a Baseball field over a Soccer field has nothing to do with the sport. It has everything to do with the culture that either would create.
You will definitely have a response that shows how foolish this opinion is to have... so fire away.

p.s. I have seen a few things lately that have given me cause to rethink the whole Soccer idea.




Gives an entirely different meaning to the phrase "Soccer Mom"...

[waterboy]

First off, i admit to being a lurking troll on this thread. Can't keep up with it. But it bears repeating over and over. Tulsa needs to think of the next generations of users. Not so much the current.

Casual observance of what sports kids are playing now, watching on tv, playing on Nintendo and arguing over shows that baseball trails the pack. They are obsessing over football, basketball, soccer and extreme sports. This is just reality. And this is the generation arriving with money in their pockets, passion for their sports and fueling a curious move to embrace inner city lifestyles. The opposite of their suburban childhoods.

Look for example at the growth of churches in the last decade. They built youth oriented multi-use sport centers to keep families coming back. They didn't build based on their love of gothic styled religion that they grew up with but what was going to be their future. It's working just fine. Those churces who spent their money serving the needs of their aging members have not done so well. Now please, I'm talking successful marketing here, not the mission of religion!

We have a baseball stadium that works just fine. Set personal feuds aside. We have an opportunity to build something downtown that is more useful than a baseball diamond for the next generation or we could keep playing the same game and just keep moving current players around the chess board.

I bet you can guess my choice on that. Now, back to your regular programming....