Let's talk about the east end of downtown

[jdb]

"...needs the Driller's to agree to move before it can become..." - Swakers

I don't agree.
One, in the City's initial pitch to the great unwashed, Lafortune stated a ball park could be phased into the project, do you think he just made this up?: and two, The Drillers, or a different ball team, is more like the lipstick than the pig.

"If Global can effectively attract quality establishments and investors..." - pers

That's the rub.
No one is going to load up the family and risk the less than even-odds of negoitiating the percieved perils of DT - and do so with frequency - to shop at a walmart (spit).

Where's the motivation - they already have one in their own familiar backyard.

The retailers will have to be unique to the region to create a draw which puts them in a guinny pig boat.

Left up to the risk management of big Developement the only thing built is that of a safe bet, and everyone knows, on some level, a safe bet is boring. - jdb

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by jdb

"If Global can effectively attract quality establishments and investors..." - pers

That's the rub.
No one is going to load up the family and risk the less than even-odds of negoitiating the percieved perils of DT - and do so with frequency - to shop at a walmart (spit).

Where's the motivation - they already have one in their own familiar backyard.

The retailers will have to be unique to the region to create a draw which puts them in a guinny pig boat.

Left up to the risk management of big Developement the only thing built is that of a safe bet, and everyone knows, on some level, a safe bet is boring. - jdb

"Quality establishments and investors" was never intended to mean Wal-Mart.  Obviously we need a mix of locally owned establishments and some upscale chains.  Brookside is a good example.  Aberson's development, local bars, and the new Starbuck's/Pei Wei site all go well together.

For the East End, well-known upscale chains such as Urban Outfitters or Ruth's Chris steakhouse would give the development a 'unique to the region' status.  

The difference between the East End and a suburban development should be the abscence of big box chains.  A Starbuck's can fit into a mixed use development, but Home Depot or Wal-Mart cannot.  Big box chains are what we should want to leave OUT of our urban-style developments.  If the East End really gets going, I think there are enough local entrepreneurs that will invest in the area to balance the amount of chains and local establishments.

[jdb]

"The difference between the East End and a suburban development should be the abscence of big box chains." - ity85

Keyword "should".

Reality is the proposed projects have tried and failed to lure the box store in their eleventh hour: and in the off hours, the City itself has tried to entice the entity.

Had been trying to get the local boys to set-up shop for the last decade.
Nice dreamy, thought to think it's still a possibility - but not one that drifts through my mind anymore.


No, it's the out-of-towners who whipped out their wallets, rolled up their sleeves, and have taken a risk: but, there's no dense, urban fabric to cuddle up with, nope - just a higher price on the parts and parcels.

I sure like the feel of the Astro Park as seen by the posted photo's. - jdb

[carltonplace]

I think local businesses will get on board. Been to the airport lately? Mostly local eateries in the new food court. I would not mind a nice mix of local business and upscale chains.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

Wouldn't the passage of The Channels have a huge effect on a feasibility study concerning a development like this?  I'm betting the developer is waiting to see what Tulsa does regarding the Channels proposal, because I don't see there being enough demand (Currently) to support both developments.  The Channels theoretically calls for tons of office space and residential that will, if anything, suck all the potential out of downtown.  They probably don't want to move forward until the Channels is officially dead and buried.

Don't know where you have been, but the Channels IS dead and buried.

[aoxamaxoa]

Please see the"Idea for Downtown Housing" thread.

JDB has it right. A couple of times he has posted the issue of supply and demand across the Cherry Street, Brookside, 18th and Boston, Blue Dome and Brady districts.

You can dream of all the liquored up young people wondering around these areas all you want but in reality it's just not good.

Put a population near the east side. Please don't ruin the tradition of our ballgames by moving the stadium from the fairgrounds. The arena is going to be bad enough....

[carltonplace]

What tradition? The Drillers started out downtown. The fairgrounds stole the tradition in the first place.

[swake]

Oh yeah, the tradition of the games at Expo. It is a stunning view over the outfield wall. Left field has a great shot of Walgreens and right field is the Lowes parking lot. Awesome!

And If I'd like something to eat before or after the game there are so many great resturants right there in walking distance. Oh wait, there's not. Maybe you could get some bad cheese fries at the off-track betting place? But, I can't go there if I have the kids. The best food option near the stadium seems like it must be microwave burritos from Walgreens. I also love the tradition of dodging horse manure on the walk from the parking lots. Wow, good times.

Come on, the stadium is clean, but it's as generic as they come and the location simply could not be worse.

[aoxamaxoa]

great....an outdoor anchor for the east end that has 4 months of home games....what? like 40 nights? Well, that's more activity than the arena will pull in during the year. Let's not get into this again gamers.

A baseball park is no substitute for education and housing....

scheme on.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

great....an outdoor anchor for the east end that has 4 months of home games....what? like 40 nights? Well, that's more activity than the arena will pull in during the year. Let's not get into this again gamers.

A baseball park is no substitute for education and housing....

scheme on.

People with kids don't really live in downtown areas much in any city, except maybe New York. Access to higher education is a good thing in an urban area, but public secondary education means little to the viability of this project.

Residential use is the key to all of downtown, but it's the chicken and the egg argument. The area has to have retail to be truly attractive as an urban and walkable area, but retail can't live without residential development. Somehow something has to bridge the gap so that retail can happen before the density is achieved that would require the retail. And the density will never be achieved if the retail is not there.

A stadium can be the kind of anchor that bridges this gap by bringing enough non-residents into the area to help to support the retail while the residential aspect is growing. And, can also bring an urban neighborhood the kind of "action" that makes urban dwellers more likely to want to live in the area.

The target groups here are young educated people who do not have kids yet (I left when I had kids), gays, older empty nesters tired of big houses and yards and commutes and DINKs that chose to never have kids. Secondary education means little to any of these groups.

Education is important to the health of the city as a whole, but not downtown.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

great....an outdoor anchor for the east end that has 4 months of home games....what? like 40 nights? Well, that's more activity than the arena will pull in during the year. Let's not get into this again gamers.

A baseball park is no substitute for education and housing....

scheme on.

But there will be more like 65 to 70 games between April 1st and Labor Day.

There are also 10 Saturday night games and ten Friday night games scheduled this year that would be a real complement to an area that had before and after entertainment choices.

There is also a Friday night bedlam game for OU and OSU fans that attracts thousands of college kids each year. Think what they would do for after hours clubs and dining downtown.

There are also five days games for businessmen scheduled in 2007 and six Sunday afternoon that would be great for downtown church-goers.

Face it. Downtown baseball is magic in almost every town that has done it.

I will look forward to the Saturday night fireworks shows in front of the downtown skyline.

[SXSW]

The only problem is that this ballpark won't face the skyline.  I know most ballparks face the north or east, but could an exception be made?  That would be one awesome view from near 5th and Greenwood looking west.

[aoxamaxoa]

"There is also a Friday night bedlam game for OU and OSU fans that attracts thousands of college kids each year. Think what they would do for after hours clubs and dining downtown."

One night? You all are tripping....

[Renaissance]

Didn't we go over this already?

We agree that there aren't currenly enough entertainment seekers in Tulsa's core area to support another full-blown entertainment district.

So how do we get the entertainment seekers from outlying areas (South Tulsa and the 'burbs) to get on the Broken Arrow Expressway and head northwest?  Create a destination they can't help but notice, and can't help but relate to.

What on earth could that destination be??

Oh, a downtown ballpark.

[unknown]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
One night? You all are tripping....

Yeah, an organic garden and a smoothie bar would do much better... and provide education to our youth that a healthy lifestyle is a smart lifestyle.