Let's talk about the east end of downtown

[Chris]

I agree with Ruf and have trouble understanding how his point of how much more "multi-use" a soccer stadium can be compared to a baseball field. I think you guys have been drinking to much of that baseball-fueling bong water.

[OKC_Shane]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

AutoZone Park in Memphis. Seems like a similar concept...for a AAA team.

Or for a "similar concept" you could just look a bit closer to home... The Bricktown Ballpark was the #3 stadium in the country last year, and has been #1 two years in a row before. It's called "a model" for cities building new parks. Memphis' park has been #1 before too, but it didn't even make the list in '06.

As others have said, the East End really is the most important development going on in Tulsa now. It's really ambitious, well-connected to downtown, and it offers a downtown stadium that can not only be used for baseball but outdoor concerts and even more creative things (such as the giant snow-tubing slide set up in December in the Bricktown Ballpark) to draw people into the East End area and downtown in general.

Also I think the entire proposal is very realistic. It is not over-the-top or sensationalist and I believe it can and will happen- And even if it doesn't get done entirely as planned, I think parts will be completed, like the ballpark and inspire more organic growth in the area. Might take some time for the hotels to be confident enough to open up, but it'll happen. The ballpark is really the key feature of this proposal IMO.

[perspicuity85]

Overall, a baseball stadium in the East End will bring in more revenue than a soccer stadium.  Although soccer's popularity is ever-increasing, it doesn't have near the fan-base baseball does.  No disrespect to soccer, but baseball is still a more popular spectator sport in the US.

I personally would have liked to see TU build a soccer stadium instead of its "grand entrance" or whatever its called.  TU has very prominent men's and women's soccer programs.  I would actually have supported eminent domain being used for TU's land acquisition if they were building a large soccer stadium that would serve as a possible NCAA tournament site as well as possible MLS franchise home.  After all, the Roughnecks did play at Skelly Stadium.

[jdb]

"Memphis' park has been #1 before too, but it didn't even make the list in '06." - OKC sha

Anything like that of the new car smell?
As the newness wears off, the aromatic pride goes stale?  

Guess the trick is to build something that  drop's off "The List" slower than the other guy's, eh?

I still haven't changed my mind on the issue of scale.
Ball parks are big, even the little ones, and so are the parking lots that go hand-in-hand with ball parks...and Big belongs elsewhere.

Prediction: '36

Somewhere inside the IDL there will sprout up a area that has gob's of itty bitty shops right next to eachother...and that will be the place to hang.

USR -

I must have missed something...I can't figure out what in the hell your quoting me for.
However, if it helps, I can't afford the EE anymore either.
So much for "organic growh".
Can I buy a vowel for $200,000.00?

[okiebybirth]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

Overall, a baseball stadium in the East End will bring in more revenue than a soccer stadium.  

Can you provide the link to the report where you got this information please?

[OKC_Shane]

quote:Originally posted by jdb

"Memphis' park has been #1 before too, but it didn't even make the list in '06." - OKC sha

Anything like that of the new car smell?
As the newness wears off, the aromatic pride goes stale?  

Guess the trick is to build something that  drop's off "The List" slower than the other guy's, eh?

I still haven't changed my mind on the issue of scale.
Ball parks are big, even the little ones, and so are the parking lots that go hand-in-hand with ball parks...and Big belongs elsewhere.

Prediction: '36

Somewhere inside the IDL there will sprout up a area that has gob's of itty bitty shops right next to eachother...and that will be the place to hang.

Memphis' stadium was built in 2000, OKC's was built in 1998. Apparently the newness factor isn't all that matters. Also, one of the stadiums ranked ahead of OKC last year was built in 1951.

Sure, stadiums are big, and yes, the place where there are a lot of shops/bars/restaurants is a great place to hang. Why not encourage that area to sprout up by increasing the amount of people who visit downtown with a stadium? You gotta remember that there is no boundary for the urban core.. Pretend the IDL just doesn't exist- you can extend the urban core beyond that. So why not put the ballpark in the center of it all, knowing that you'll never run out of space for urban core until you fill every square mile with dense development.

I just mentioned another benefit of the ballpark- like the arena, it will bring more events to downtown Tulsa. The more people you can draw out of parts of the metro into downtown for something that they want to see,  more people that will become familiar with downtown, the more businesses will be confident that downtown has a steady enough flow of patrons, and more people will realize that they want to be a part of the downtown community. Allowing the ballpark to be a catalyst for retail, entertainment, and hotel development (like the arena is becoming) will only intensify the Tulsa renaissance. Sure, the arena is great, but I think you need both downtown to make a really big splash.

I don't think the East End will be successful without the ballpark, or in any case it will take much longer to attract tenants without it.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by jdb

USR -

I must have missed something...I can't figure out what in the hell your quoting me for.
However, if it helps, I can't afford the EE anymore either.
So much for "organic growh".
Can I buy a vowel for $200,000.00?

Sorry, jdb-- thought you were going to respond in full to my post on pg.3...

Spent New Years' Eve at Blue Dome & Brady...

And I hafta say the BA expressway is a straight shot to this mythical "East End" and is very accessible to the proposed location of the stadium... who'd want to live that close to the highway, anyway...

Perspi-- the question is not between the current popularity of baseball and soccer... if this were between a Major League Baseball team and a Major League Soccer team coming to Tulsa, it'd be no contest... baseball is a more popular spectator sport.  This is between AA-Texas League baseball and Major League Soccer... ask the folks in Frisco, TX which means more and brings in more $$$ to their city... the Texas League's Frisco Roughriders at Dr Pepper Ballpark or MLS's FC Dallas at Pizza Hut Park... and guess which stadium hosts more varied events...

I need to go out and consume massive quantities of beer... so somebody please compare the history of minor league baseball in OKC and Memphis to the history of minor league baseball in Tulsa........ then compare the history of soccer in Tulsa to the history of soccer in OKC and Memphis....  []

[carltonplace]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by jdb

USR -

I must have missed something...I can't figure out what in the hell your quoting me for.
However, if it helps, I can't afford the EE anymore either.
So much for "organic growh".
Can I buy a vowel for $200,000.00?

Sorry, jdb-- thought you were going to respond in full to my post on pg.3...

Spent New Years' Eve at Blue Dome & Brady...

And I hafta say the BA expressway is a straight shot to this mythical "East End" and is very accessible to the proposed location of the stadium... who'd want to live that close to the highway, anyway...

I live within two blocks of 51 and I can barely hear it. Tracy Park sits just east of 75 and is still a very desirable place to live. I don't think having close access to a highway is a deterrent to quality living. The current downside to living close to the core is the dearth of grocery, dry cleaning, shops etc to fill everyday needs. We do have a downtown tag agency now though.

[USRufnex]

The point I was trying to make was that the proposed ballpark's location is a prime spot for a stadium but not-so-prime for residential.

Put the stadium/parking next to hwy 75/51, the mixed-use/retail next to that... then the residential a block or so to the west...

I didn't mean to imply that "having close access to a highway is a deterrent to quality living."  I used to live in a studio apt located within half a block of the "el" train on the northside of Chicago.  Within 2 weeks of moving in, I hardly noticed the noise of the  redline trains going north/southbound every 7-10 mins... and down the block from me was a gut-rehab brownstone with 2 bdr condos selling for $275,000 a pop.

(I think this is AOX's cue to chime in with "We are NOT Chicago.")

So, if the east end project comes to fruition, I couldn't afford to live in one of GDP's condos. But if the project attracted a grocery store/dry cleaners/retail, guess who'd try to find/rent/buy a place within walking distance in a more "organic" area (Blue Dome or Brady) a few blocks away?

So, within the next 2-3 years (just moved to Tulsa end of October), I could be your new neighbor, the soccer-crackpot who lives on "the other side of the tracks"... []

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by Chris

I agree with Ruf and have trouble understanding how his point of how much more "multi-use" a soccer stadium can be compared to a baseball field. I think you guys have been drinking to much of that baseball-fueling bong water.

First, get your own line.

Second (and for the umpteenth time), a baseball stadium is more multi-use than a soccer field based on the dimension of the field. You can fit a football or soccer field into a baseball stadium, but you can't fit a baseball field in a soccer pitch, unless one entire side of the stands is retractable or temporary.

I've said this to Ruf several times, but he either doesn't believe me or ignores it -- I'd love to see Tulsa land a MLS franchise. It would be great for the city and I believe we'd support it here. I just think a soccer-specific facility would be best built outside of downtown with a couple dozen soccer fields built around it for youth soccer. Studies have shown that there is demand for those fields, and it would be a great fit. And if something should ever happen to the pro team, we'd still be able to use the whole complex. If it were built downtown and the team moved or the league folded, we'd have a 20,000 seat stadium with no tenant creating this huge hole in downtown.

Building a baseball stadium downtown is a no-brainer. It's a model that has worked countless times across the country. Baseball and downtowns just go together -- good weather for strolling around, no tailgating tradition like football/soccer, ballpark architecture "fits" well. Tulsa has a 100 year history of supporting minor league baseball. The Drillers have solid, consistent support to the tune of over 300k fans a year. Minor league baseball has about 70 home games a year compared with 20 for MLS, which is better for businesses around the stadium. If anything happened to the Drillers franchise, Tulsa would get another one (which is what actually happened just a few years ago), so the fear of having a tenant-less stadium creating a hole in downtown is next to nil.

A new stadium for the Drillers downtown makes a lot more sense on almost every level. Plus the small fact that we already HAVE a team, one that is playing in the second oldest stadium in the Texas League. Drillers Stadium is only 25 years old, but they've maxed out what they can do there without completely rebuilding the park -- and there wouldn't be enough land at the current site to do what they wanted anyway. So the opportunity and the need is already present, just a matter of making it happen and enjoying baseball in beautiful downtown Tulsa again. []

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

The point I was trying to make was that the proposed ballpark's location is a prime spot for a stadium but not-so-prime for residential.

Put the stadium/parking next to hwy 75/51, the mixed-use/retail next to that... then the residential a block or so to the west...

I didn't mean to imply that "having close access to a highway is a deterrent to quality living."  I used to live in a studio apt located within half a block of the "el" train on the northside of Chicago.  Within 2 weeks of moving in, I hardly noticed the noise of the  redline trains going north/southbound every 7-10 mins... and down the block from me was a gut-rehab brownstone with 2 bdr condos selling for $275,000 a pop.

(I think this is AOX's que to chime in with "We are NOT Chicago.")

So, if the east end project comes to fruition, I couldn't afford to live in one of GDP's condos. But if the project attracted a grocery store/dry cleaners/retail, guess who'd try to find/rent/buy a place within walking distance in a more "organic" area (Blue Dome or Brady) a few blocks away?

So, within the next 2-3 years (just moved to Tulsa end of October), I could be your new neighbor, the soccer-crackpot who lives on "the other side of the tracks"... []

Good post.

The site they're talking about for the ballpark is just about perfect for a stadium. Great street and expressway access, high visibility, no need to close streets to assemble a big enough parcel of land (GDP would actually ADD streets), close to existing entertainment but not right on top of it, just the right distance from the downtown core (5 blocks). That site is tailor-made for a ballpark.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by okiebybirth

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

Overall, a baseball stadium in the East End will bring in more revenue than a soccer stadium.  

Can you provide the link to the report where you got this information please?

I think it's pretty obvious.  As others have pointed out, MLS requires their teams to have a soccer-specific stadium.  This limits the stadium's sports revenue to soccer only.

Second of all, Tulsa currently has a minor-league baseball team, but does not have a pro soccer team.  If the stadium was finished today, the Drillers could move in tomorrow.  Even if Tulsa had a soccer stadium, an MLS franchise may not come to town for years.

Third, national attendance and TV viewing for baseball is much higher than soccer.  I think we can all deductively say that without any in-depth study.  I know Tulsa has a lot of soccer fans, but I doubt the demand for pro soccer is as high as pro baseball.  Tulsa has had minor league baseball in some form for almost 100 years.  We've also hosted an OU/OSU game in Tulsa for as long as I can remember.

We have to look at what benefits a baseball stadium in the East End can provide. The Tulsa Drillers already average about 5,000 a game according to this site: http://www.ballparkwatch.com/features/attendance_by_average_affiliated_2006.html

After a Drillers game is over, these 5,000 people simply get in their cars and drive home.  Drillers Stadium is surrounded by neighborhoods, Walgreens', Sears, and the fairgrounds.  If the ballpark were in a dense, urban environment such as the East End, there would be 5,000 guaranteed potential customers to nearby shops, restaurants, and bars.

[aoxamaxoa]

"After a Drillers game is over, these 5,000 people simply get in their cars and drive home. Drillers Stadium is surrounded by neighborhoods, Walgreens', Sears, and the fairgrounds. If the ballpark were in a dense, urban environment such as the East End, there would be 5,000 guaranteed potential customers to nearby shops, restaurants, and bars."

I doubt it perpsqueak...

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

"After a Drillers game is over, these 5,000 people simply get in their cars and drive home. Drillers Stadium is surrounded by neighborhoods, Walgreens', Sears, and the fairgrounds. If the ballpark were in a dense, urban environment such as the East End, there would be 5,000 guaranteed potential customers to nearby shops, restaurants, and bars."

I doubt it perpsqueak...

How can you doubt the fact that these 5,000 people are potential customers to businesses within walking distance?

[aoxamaxoa]

You left out your guarantee!