downtown arena

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

quote:Originally posted by swake

The largest pubic facility management firm in the world is going to run the arena and they say it will turn a profit.

But from reading online I would guess they reached that position by not knowing as much as people on message boards and blos or just by lying.

What do you think?

OK Swake.... This is a trick question... correct.?

You are intelligent and you realize there is a difference between "generating revenue....... and turning a profit".

No doubt the Arena will generate revenue..

Will it make in excess of one Million Dollars per month (over and above operating cost.. management cost.. etc.) for the first 15 years it is open..?

If you have an analyst that can make that sort of leap... Ask him what the Dow will be doing in five years..? I need his name.....

But again from reading other things you have written on this and other Boards... This has to be a trick question..

On the other hand.. this will be a stepping stone for other things... So should that revenue be counted as Arena Profit..?

Here is hoping that there is no such thing as a "Bubble" in the New Urban..Modern Form Base Code Building.. Non Sprawl.. Downtown Core Development Boom...!

The arena will have, according to SMG, a net operating profit to the city, it will not be a drain on the city budget. That does not mean it will make a profit when you consider the construction cost, so yes, it will make a "profit" and yes it will be a loss leader. The reasons to construct the arena are to spur downtown development, to add to the quality of life of the city (and civic pride) and to protect and grow the convention industry in Tulsa. The operational profit in no way would have ever justified (or financed) the construction cost. But for terms of the city budget, a profit.

http://www.cityoftulsa.org/News/Archives/ConventionCenterOperator.asp

Mayor Bill LaFortune announced today that he has accepted the unanimous recommendation of the Vision 2025 Oversight Committee to hire SMG to operate both the BOK Center and the Tulsa Convention Center. SMG is the largest manager of convention centers and arenas in the United States.
"The Vision 2025 Oversight Committee worked tirelessly, and I fully support their recommendation," Mayor LaFortune said in a news conference. "After extensive review and countless hours in the research and interview process the committee determined that SMG was best suited for the job."
An open invitation for bid went out July 15th and two national firms and the Tulsa Convention Center Staff responded.  The committee followed the required city ordinance in its selection process.
LaFortune said employees of the Convention Center will be provided with every protection necessary regarding job status, wages and benefits. The transition in management will be completed in 1 ½ years.
"We are very proud of the talent in our existing Convention Center Staff.  SMG shares our opinion and is sensitive to the transition of our talented Convention Center staff.  
"A lot of thought went into this decision going all the way back to our Arena and convention center tours that took us to nine cities and 15 venues," LaFortune said. "Among those we toured included numerous SMG facilities and we were impressed with the success of each one."
SMG brings three decades of experience as managers of 70 Arenas, 55 convention centers, and 35 performing arts centers, to the table.  They also manage 21 combination Arena and convention centers.  
"SMG is arguably the best in the business, and due to its huge size and relationships, it will have great leverage in events bookings, creating a competitive advantage for Tulsa.  Also, our current Arena tenants and our naming rights sponsor, BOK, endorsed SMG, along with numerous other clients and vendors," LaFortune said.
During remarks at the Nov. 4th news conference, LaFortune said, "The bottom line for both me and the committee was doing what was best to protect the citizens and taxpayers.  SMG projected millions in net revenues over five years, basing the numbers on their wealth of experience and extensive research in the Tulsa market. SMG, after the first full year that both facilities are open, shows at least $1 million a year in combined operating profit.
"While SMG manages the OKC Arena, we believe they are two very distinct markets, only 10% of sales are crossover.  SMG has been very successful operating multiple facilities in close proximity. They have done an excellent job in OKC and we believe they will do the same great job for Tulsa. Again, the strength of their revenue projections was impossible to ignore and completely overshadow any question related to Oklahoma City.
"We are confident that having one management team for both the convention center and the Arena will have numerous efficiencies.  Those include savings in operation costs, staffing, marketing and building services. These buildings will work together as one team, ensuring consistent high levels of customer service.  Both national firms showed us savings of a minimum of $700,000 a year with single management of both facilities, and both firms, in their expert opinions, recommended single management as opposed to split management for the facility," he added

[Trams]

Perhaps it's a white elephant, perhaps it will be a money drain ... but it's a done-deal ... we're getting an arena ... so let's make the most of it.

[AMP]

Anyone know:

1. The load limit per square foot for the floor in the new arena.

2. Size of opening width, height of the loading doors and entrance into the floor from the alley of the arena?

3. Dimensions of the floor space?

4. Will SMG allow dirt events to be produced in the new arena?  If so, do they have or plan ownership and storage areas for Clay, Sandy Loam and Top Soil for the production of these types of events?

Arenas we use in other States provide the dirt, two or more front end loaders and all necessary operators for use of dirt for our Indoor motorsports events.  Tulsa is one of only a few Cities we produce events in that does not have the equipment and storage of material.  

Most larger motorsports events today require a much larger floor space than our existing Maxwell Convention Center or Pavillion provides.  The Live Stock Arena at Tulsa Expo is closer to floor dimensions, but lacks in seating capacity. Best case is a floor space of 600 feet by 450 feet.  Most in this area are tiny by comparision at 220-250 feet by 110 feet.    Lazy E Arena in Guthrie, Oklahoma is one of the largest in the State.

The Expo Building comes closer to floor dimensiona, but is restricted by support beams.  Seating is a major pain having to lease and then move in and out the portable wooden plank seat bleachers that are not owned by the County.  

Anyone have of have see published the dimensions of the floor space for the new arena?

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by PRH

In my opinion, we don't even need this arena to be built.

So we should've just toughed it out with our 45 year old, 8000 seat, cinder block dump instead?

We needed a new arena regardless, because the old one was done, finished, kaput. It's a civic embarassment. Had to be replaced if we had one ounce of pride or self-respect left.

And if you're going to build a new arena, building it smaller than the minimum size required to bid on special events and concerts would have been monumentally stupid. Why pass up the opportunity to host NCAA basketball tournament games and major concerts right from the get-go? Doesn't take even a spec of vision to at least give ourselves a shot at those things while we're going to the trouble of building a new arena.

And we're making it nice, with an interesting design. Part of that is to be competitive with other cities, but a large part of that should come back to civic pride. We build an arena once in a generation, maybe longer even. We'll all be dead or barely hanging on in retirement homes when the next arena is proposed. Gee, what a terrible shame we decided to build a nice one to last us for 40+ years!! Why not just follow the lead of some of these half-donkey casinos and throw up some tin barn and be done with it? Gimme a break aleady...

You negative Nancys who are always griping at everything have gotten the Tulsa you deserve for the past 25 years. Time for you losers to step aside.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

So we should've just toughed it out with our 45 year old, 8000 seat, cinder block dump instead?

Sure, there were reasons for a new arena, but they weren't worth $150 million, IMHO.   Or, to describe my sentiment more accurately, I think there were many, many more important things that Tulsa could have done with $150 million.  I think we were desperate at the time and this was "hyped" as the solution.  Its not.  Just like the Channels is not.  And its my sincere hope that Tulsans never get backed into a corner like this again.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

So we should've just toughed it out with our 45 year old, 8000 seat, cinder block dump instead?

Sure, there were reasons for a new arena, but they weren't worth $150 million, IMHO.   Or, to describe my sentiment more accurately, I think there were many, many more important things that Tulsa could have done with $150 million.  I think we were desperate at the time and this was "hyped" as the solution.  Its not.  Just like the Channels is not.  And its my sincere hope that Tulsans never get backed into a corner like this again.

The arena and the Channels are completely different issues.  The Channels cost was about six times what the arena cost.  The Channels is not currently in high demand the way the arena is.  The fact is, anyone who thinks the arena was a bad idea is ignorant.  It's just that simple.  Cities all over the country that have a smaller MSA population than Tulsa already have an arena.  We are the largest MSA city in the nation without an indoor arena seating >12,000.    Let's face it, Little Rock has had an 18,000 seat arena for about ten years now.  There are about a quarter of a million more people in Tulsa's MSA than there are in Little Rock's.  How much more convincing do you people need?  Know the facts!!!!

[TheArtist]

Reading throught all the arguments against the arena I was shocked when someone reminded me of the price tag, 150 million.  I was like.. Thats it?  Only 150 mill?  Thats whats causing all the fuss?  Is this city, or town, so small and poor that 150 million for an arena is so controversial, so devistating a struggle to afford?

[RecycleMichael]

There was one thing that was similar in both the Channels and the Arena...both saw a need for a large public gathering place.

Good size crowds don't happen enough in our town.

We have some things that inspire big crowds . The Tulsa Run, the State Fair, Mayfest almost every year, the Centennial Fireworks this year all are fun partly in the fact that there were thousands of us together.

It doesn't have to be an island or an arena, but we need something that serves as a perfect place to put big crowds.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Reading throught all the arguments against the arena I was shocked when someone reminded me of the price tag, 150 million.  I was like.. Thats it?  Only 150 mill?  Thats whats causing all the fuss?  Is this city, or town, so small and poor that 150 million for an arena is so controversial, so devistating a struggle to afford?

Even with the cost overruns on the arena, you could literally build FOUR Cesar Pelli BOK Centers for the total estimated price of the Channels ($178 million vs. $788 million).

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

The arena and the Channels are completely different issues.  The Channels cost was about six times what the arena cost.  The Channels is not currently in high demand the way the arena is.  The fact is, anyone who thinks the arena was a bad idea is ignorant.  It's just that simple.  Cities all over the country that have a smaller MSA population than Tulsa already have an arena.  We are the largest MSA city in the nation without an indoor arena seating >12,000.    Let's face it, Little Rock has had an 18,000 seat arena for about ten years now.  There are about a quarter of a million more people in Tulsa's MSA than there are in Little Rock's.  How much more convincing do you people need?  Know the facts!!!!

First, I think you just called me ignorant, but I'll let it slide this time.[]  Second, I am in no way a tightwad; I think Tulsans should make investments in their future.  I wanted Tulsans to vote for the Vision 2025, I just didn't think that the Arena and Convention Center should have been the centerpiece.  I think the way the Vision 2025 projects were selected for votes was very lame and many smaller (but good) ideas were passed over in order to make room for an idea that was stale 25 years ago.

And so, what I am saying is that it was, and is, ridiculous to think that the arena and convention center ($183 million, together) is the ONE MISSING piece that Tulsa needed for success.  While I'm absolutely thrilled at the prospect of some bigtime basketball tournament action, I really don't think its worth $150 million.  That place will sit empty 3/4 of the time.  Could we have spent that money more wisely? You bet.  Why didn't we spend $183 million making Tulsa a desirable, fun convention town, first, and worry about the convention center second?  No reason we couldn't have switched it around.  Point is, nobody really thought it through.  Bank on that.  We should be more careful in the future.

/Oh, and "high demand"?  Good luck proving that.

[jdb]

"So we should've just toughed it out with our 45 year old, 8000 seat, cinder block dump instead?" - AJ

Dude, not all public space are suppose to create a sense of walking through fields of Juniper and Mist.

That "dump" is true to its era and as such deserves respect. Without those designers bringing that "style" to life where would we be now?

It's a stepping-stone in the evolution of indoor spaces, mind your manners, jdb

[AMP]

Based on one of the films from "Tulsa Fantastic Films" the original design of the Civic Center we have now was to of been Round and I believe had more seating than what was built.  

Anyone know the reason why the Round Design was replaced with the rectangle?

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

The arena and the Channels are completely different issues.  The Channels cost was about six times what the arena cost.  The Channels is not currently in high demand the way the arena is.  The fact is, anyone who thinks the arena was a bad idea is ignorant.  It's just that simple.  Cities all over the country that have a smaller MSA population than Tulsa already have an arena.  We are the largest MSA city in the nation without an indoor arena seating >12,000.    Let's face it, Little Rock has had an 18,000 seat arena for about ten years now.  There are about a quarter of a million more people in Tulsa's MSA than there are in Little Rock's.  How much more convincing do you people need?  Know the facts!!!!

First, I think you just called me ignorant, but I'll let it slide this time.[]  Second, I am in no way a tightwad; I think Tulsans should make investments in their future.  I wanted Tulsans to vote for the Vision 2025, I just didn't think that the Arena and Convention Center should have been the centerpiece.  I think the way the Vision 2025 projects were selected for votes was very lame and many smaller (but good) ideas were passed over in order to make room for an idea that was stale 25 years ago.

And so, what I am saying is that it was, and is, ridiculous to think that the arena and convention center ($183 million, together) is the ONE MISSING piece that Tulsa needed for success.  While I'm absolutely thrilled at the prospect of some bigtime basketball tournament action, I really don't think its worth $150 million.  That place will sit empty 3/4 of the time.  Could we have spent that money more wisely? You bet.  Why didn't we spend $183 million making Tulsa a desirable, fun convention town, first, and worry about the convention center second?  No reason we couldn't have switched it around.  Point is, nobody really thought it through.  Bank on that.  We should be more careful in the future.

/Oh, and "high demand"?  Good luck proving that.

Sorry for the hastiness, but the fact is Tulsa is the largest MSA population in the country without an arena seating over 12,000.  Do you think every other city in America just got it wrong?  Downtown arenas stimulate private downtown development.  Would Kanbar and Kauffman have bought up so much property without the investment by the citizens of Tulsa in Vison2025?  Would Global Development Partners have ever been involved in the East End project without it?  Probably not.  And while I agree with you that some of the Vision 2025 projects should have been left off the ballot, I think overall its passage was very beneficial to the Tulsa MSA.  The BOk Center is in very high demand in the Tulsa area, and I don't have to prove it, it's already been proven.  BOk wouldn't have paid $11 million for naming rights if they didn't think it was worthwile (that wasn't an act of philanthropy).  SMG would never have offered to manage the arena if they didn't think it was a profitable contract.  NCAA tournaments and high-profile concerts are huge draws, and when the arena is finished there will be about 900,000 people in Tulsa's MSA that will go to these type of events.  And what about the possiblity of an OSU or OU vs. TU basketball game at the arena?  Sellout.  What about a neutral site game between Arkansas and OSU or OU or TU?  I guarantee you people from the burgeoning NW Ark population will come to that event.  Furthermore, people are often attracted to the facility, not just the event.  Do people in the suburban Tulsa (which includes about 2/3 of the MSA population) want to go to the convention center to watch an arena football game?  Most of the time the answer is no.  I'm not saying the new arena will draw 18,000 for an arena football game, but I would bet money that it will definitely increase attendance.  Tulsa has been skipped in many major concert tours in the past 15 years.  Oklahoma City was skipped on most of those too, until 2002, when the Ford Center opened.

As I've said all along, Tulsa needs a downtown magnet to attract people.  The arena alone will not save downtown, but it is a necessary component.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by jdb

"So we should've just toughed it out with our 45 year old, 8000 seat, cinder block dump instead?" - AJ

Dude, not all public space are suppose to create a sense of walking through fields of Juniper and Mist.

That "dump" is true to its era and as such deserves respect. Without those designers bringing that "style" to life where would we be now?

It's a stepping-stone in the evolution of indoor spaces, mind your manners, jdb

It wasn't even good for its era while we were IN its era. It was a spartan cinder-block box the day it opened.

We used to host the annual International Finals Rodeo in that building, which brought in a lot of money every year. They bailed on the place because the facility was woefully inadequate -- twenty years ago.

While I have never bought the hype the Chamber was selling on all the conventions and money-spending out of towners the new arena was going to lure, it was just time to replace the old one. It's been all but untouched for its 45 year life. We've gotten our money out of it. We can use the space for more productive uses. Time to bid that civic embarrassment a not-so-fond farewell and get a new building online.

The idea that we didn't need a new arena after 45 years in that dingy, depressing, cramped, charmless shoebox is laughable. Anyone who can't see that should be given a one-way ticket to Guymon on the back of a hay wagon. Buh-bye.

[jdb]

"...be given a one-way ticket to Guymon..." - AJ

Hey, now your picking on Guymon?

Guymon, Ok. was an important...damn gotta scram, I'll finish with you later!

jdb