Claim to ‘cure’ homosexuality

[si_uk_lon_ok]

I heard Jesus died in LA during his comeback. Was I wrong?
Jesus proof

[aoxamaxoa]

quote:Originally posted by truth4freedom

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

Truth4freedumb....you seem new to this game.
"what church do you attend?"

Actually, with a question like that, you stoop to the low of a character attack instead of honest and open debate. That says volumes about your character and motive, not to mention the validity of your position in this fun little conversation. Do you wish to attack my doctrinal credibility? What bearing does that have on this debate?

Hey, I want to know your frame of reference. So, it has plenty to do with it.

Honestly, I was making my typical sarcastic remark to newbies who act as though religious beliefs are something you wear on your sleeve.....that and the question is the most asked question around town. Comes before "what's your name?" and "what do you do?".

Besides, I started this thread giving me the right to ask follow up questions.

[truth4freedom]

quote:Originally posted by BKDotCom

quote:Originally posted by truth4freedom
Where in the Catholic faith is evolution taught as fact?

In that case I go to a Southern Baptist Church. Do you know the name of one I can fill in?

So let me get this straight. If I attend a church that's accepted your opinion, then I'm open for debate. But if I attend a church that does not, I'm no longer open for debate. But you somehow are? The hypocrisy is deafening. I must hold all opinions as equally valid, unless I find someone who doesn't hold my opinion as equally valid. I then will refuse to accept their opinion as being equally valid, since it doesn't agree with my opinion of the equal value of opinions. Did I get it right?

Did I say "taught as fact"?
Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36).

Where did I compare my level of openness to yours??

Valid opinion??  What kind of oxymoron is that?  One can have valid theories, not opinions.  Fact by majority rule?

Then you start rambling...

So do you think that debate is only 'open', if one does not hold to an absolute view. That's quite an 'open' opinion.

It's not. how do you refute a valid opinion? So, then what constitutes a valid theory? I can say with confidence that Darwins philosophy is not a valid theory.

You're rambling, and if you just want to have a flame war and do not quit the circular reasoning nonsense, I'll end this discussion and leave the readers, not your forum buddies to decide the outcome.  

[truth4freedom]

quote:Originally posted by unknown

quote:Originally posted by truth4freedom

So let me get this straight. If I attend a church that's accepted your opinion, then I'm open for debate. But if I attend a church that does not, I'm no longer open for debate. But you somehow are? The hypocrisy is deafening. I must hold all opinions as equally valid, unless I find someone who doesn't hold my opinion as equally valid. I then will refuse to accept their opinion as being equally valid, since it doesn't agree with my opinion of the equal value of opinions. Did I get it right?

no, it just means that if you attend a Church where the Bible is taught as fact and history and not as a simple guideline for a moral code of beliefs... more than likely you are closeminded (sic) and do not adhere to debates very well.

On the contrary, you do not. I have investigated and been a proponent for both. You are close minded if you believe that those who do not share your moral relativism are not capable of debate. In effect, you close your mind to any world view that holds an absolute truth, because your world view holds all truth as valid to the them that believe it, but not to you. Anyone who holds an absolute worldview is not relative like you, so you deem their worldview as closed minded and not valid. You're a hypocrite, and my previous description fits you perfectly.

[truth4freedom]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Hey, I want to know your frame of reference. So, it has plenty to do with it.

Honestly, I was making my typical sarcastic remark to newbies who act as though religious beliefs are something you wear on your sleeve.....that and the question is the most asked question around town. Comes before "what's your name?" and "what do you do?".

Besides, I started this thread giving me the right to ask follow up questions.

Great! Heavy sarcasm is my favorite method of communication. I can tell we'll fast become friends.

Truth is, I'm a preachers kid, and after observing the game of church politics, and the way people treat the Gospel with such contempt, I hold church in my home with my wife and myself. I am currently looking for a good church to get involved with.

I believe religion, true religion should permeate every area of your life, just as post modernism does with many here. I'm preaching and you're preaching. We both have differing world views and what's so hard about debating those?

I'm sorry, where are my manners. My name is Jeremy, and I work at an international company arranging services for their VIP clients. I am also very interested and involved in Conservative grassroots politics.

Ask away!

[truth4freedom]

quote:Originally posted by unknown

and the truth comes out...

Thanks, but see my problem with the Bible is that is was written by man and then it was translated from Hebrew by men drunk off wine.... Which would make it far from being, "absolute and irrefutable," I have a hard  time putting my full faith in that kind of thing, but the Bible does provide a good moral code and some sort of purpose in life, but still the Bible is full of contradictions.

Why are there two creation stories???

The Bible is a collection of stories... kind of reminds me of the game we play as kids, when one kids whispers a sentence into another's ear and at the end of the line you get something completely different... The Bible is the same way and should only be regarded as a book of faith and nothing more.

You really think they were drunk when they translated it? How come original Greek and Hebrew translations from the first century keep turning up that validate out current King James translation?

Find me one clear contradiction, in context. Just one.

I've never seen two. Where do they appear, and how do they contradict each other?

Funny thing, there are 300 prophesies written about Jesus thousands of years before His life that were fulfilled by Him to the letter. Also, Jesus was prophesied, on several occasions to die in a manner not even used during the time of the prophecy. I could go on, and on, and on....

[truth4freedom]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy
Drop to your knees, perk your nose up, close your eyes, and kiss my arse.

That's the best argument I've seen all day!

quote:Originally posted by waterboy
You seem to have missed the true meaning of that story of three horny men. But then it didn't suit you so you made it fit.

No, that would be you that's missed it. But how is that view of the world with your head so far up...ahh, never mind. Enjoy your self confident delusion.

quote:Originally posted by waterboy
When you have experienced more life and less preaching, then you can start preaching to us. Meanwhile you're just another religious nut job, ignoring science and history, incorrectly interpreting the Bible, and generally espousing hateful ideology.

I believe you are in need of more preaching, and less life. You're just another intolerant moral relativist with no original thoughts or arguments, ignoring that the fathers of modern science were strong Christians and not refuting anything I say, but attacking me personally as I contribute historical and Biblical fact.

Refute me. Point by point. I dare you.

quote:Originally posted by waterboy
For instance, what is your proof that a homosexual brought Aids to America? None. Could have been (probably was) due to blood transfusions, intravenous drug usage or even animals. But that doesn't fit your scheme and then we would have to demonize doctors, hospitals, animal labs and hemophiliacs. Just doesn't work for your religion, does it?

All personal attack and no fact yourself. I will get it tomorrow when I come back to play!

[unknown]

The most accepted view is that aids came from chimps in Africa... how it came into contact with man is not known, but to say that it is only spread by homosexuals.... is... well, fits right up truth4freedom's alley

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by truth4freedom

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
You can't deny there must be a genetic factor involved in what sex an animal is primarily attracted to or not.

Yes I can, and do. There has not been a gene ever found to control sexual choice, being choosing between homosexuality and heterosexuality. Furthermore, I don't consider myself an animal, nor descended from one, so an animals behavior does not apply to this topic, especially when considering moral choices.

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist Or do we all choose?   Does a red breasted robin "choose" to be attracted to a robin without a red breast and to fight one who does?  Or is he genetically predisposed to do so? Either you choose to be attracted to the opposite sex or you don't.
Which is it?

Choice is the defining characteristic here. In the case of an animal, they have no spirit and act entirely on genetic predisposition, in essence they have no choice.

Humans by contrast have a spirit and make choices using that spirit, and knowing right from wrong in their spirit as set forth by God our Creator.

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
Did the man and his buddies, as mentioned above, choose to be attracted to females?  We often use the term, "sexual preference", this is not the most accurate or scientific word to use because it has several meanings, the word preference can mean choice, as in I prefer pepperoni over Canadian bacon.  Ones food preferences are different than the basic drive to eat.  The basic sexual drive and what one is attracted to underlies all preferences, fetishes, etc.  Whether he is attracted to females is basic, what kind of females, older, younger, blondes, sheep, whatever those are added on top of that basic attraction or instict. Was it a choice for you to be attracted to the opposite sex or not?

Of course it's a choice.

What differentiates a 'basic drive' from a choice, scientifically speaking of course?

What determines your imaginary 'basic drive', scientifically speaking of course?

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
Basically it can't be that there aren't any homosexuals if there are differences between the male and female brain, such that males are supposed to be attracted to females and vice versa. Are those differences a choice or genetic?  Did the man choose to be attracted to females?

Ye, choice is occurring. You discount the human spirit and subject man and women to nothing more than genetic robots. You can't just throw choice out like that. Then you could start advocating that murderers are genetically disposed to murder and therefore not responsible for their actions.

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
If there are differences between male and female bodies, are those differences a choice or genetic and isn't the brain part of the body?

Genetic, however you are making an outlandish assumption that all of our actions are based on genetics. They are not. What separates a sexual choice vs. which kind of milk to buy at the store? According to you, nothing, it's all genetically predisposed.

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
If you agree that there is a difference between a male and female brain to determine the sex one is attracted to it has to be that on occasion some xy brains may be more female just as some xy bodies are more female (they are called hermaphrodites or transphenotype).

No, I don't. And what gene causes this?

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
Just because you can't see hermaphroditism in the brain doesn't mean it is any less real than what you can see when it is on the outside.

Gene that causes this?

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
Many times it used to be that a baby whose genitalia were ambiguous, would have its sex "assigned" to it with surgery. And many times this would result in the person growing up to discover they were attracted to the same sex.  The xy baby was "assigned" to be a girl, but this xy baby grew up and was not attracted to boys.

That's called a really bad mistake!

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
Is it normal or genetic for an xy baby to grow up and be attracted to females? If we cut off your male genitalia and gave you female hormones would you now suddenly as a girl become attracted to men? Or would your brain still be wired to be attracted to females?

I make choices using my spirit, as every other human does. I'm not a robot. I'm not an accident of nature. I'm not a pointless evolution of a puddle.

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
Would that attraction be considered genetic or a choice?

A choice. I know who I was created to be by my Creator. You're still trying to avoid that recognition.

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
At what age can this genetic attraction be changed or at what age should you choose?

It cannot be both genetic and a choice. You're quite good at attempting to blur lines!

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
Its now more common to allow the person to choose his sex when they are older if the genitalia are ambiguous, because it is recognized that just because you can guess or change the outside sex, you can't yet change and determine the sex of the brain on the inside. And just as the outside of the body may be "mixed" it is realized that in these cases that it is more likely that the inside in the brain the sex is "mixed" as well.

All you need is this elusive gene to figure it out!

It's a choice of a much larger consequence than most ever have to make, but a choice still. Few of these hermaphrodites ever are so closely middle of the road that they have a hard time with this. The hard time comes when they make a choice based on their emotions and not their spirit.

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
There is a difference between the basic sexual attraction someone has, the sex, they are attracted to, and all the "preferences", behaviors, social mores, fetishes etc. that are added on top of that basic attraction.

Nonsense. You failed to prove this genetically which is your thrust. That one cannot help who they are in their mind by genetic predisposition.

It seems the thread I am seeing in your response may have something to do with this...




Homosexuality is to you mostly behaviors or a way of choosing to think.  In other words if you are a man who has sex with a man you are a homosexual. In one sense that is true, but what is different from that is whether or not that man is "by nature" attracted to men vrs women.  If a person were a virgin, they could still be a homosexual, no sex act need be involved.  If a straight person engaged in a homosexual act that would not make them a homosexual, it was a homosexual act but they would not identify as a homosexual any more than a homosexual male who had sex with a woman would be straight. You could choose to not have sex at all, but you would still either be heterosexual or a homosexual. A homosexual male can choose to only have sex with women, but would still be a homosexual. And would be going against his nature.




But see how clumsy those arguments are?  I think that is because of the language being used and the different meanings implied in that one word, "homosexual" and how its easy to trip from one meaning to another.  

This is why I think its useful to use the terms straight and gay as different from the term homosexual and heterosexual.  Homosexual and heterosexual would be used to describe acts or thoughts, Gay or straight would be used to describe the nature. This would help clear up the different meanings or definitions we are using within one word. Give each meaning a different word.    


We can confuse the issue when we try to use the term homosexual as both nature and choice. A homosexual can indeed choose to not have sex with someone of the same sex, to not have sex at all. Or to even be with someone of the opposite sex. But he would still be gay.  A straight person could have sex with someone of the same sex and be described as a homosexual, but not gay.

A gay gene?  Show me the gene for being male or female?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by truth4freedom

quote:Originally posted by waterboy
Drop to your knees, perk your nose up, close your eyes, and kiss my arse.

That's the best argument I've seen all day!

quote:Originally posted by waterboy
You seem to have missed the true meaning of that story of three horny men. But then it didn't suit you so you made it fit.

No, that would be you that's missed it. But how is that view of the world with your head so far up...ahh, never mind. Enjoy your self confident delusion.

quote:Originally posted by waterboy
When you have experienced more life and less preaching, then you can start preaching to us. Meanwhile you're just another religious nut job, ignoring science and history, incorrectly interpreting the Bible, and generally espousing hateful ideology.

I believe you are in need of more preaching, and less life. You're just another intolerant moral relativist with no original thoughts or arguments, ignoring that the fathers of modern science were strong Christians and not refuting anything I say, but attacking me personally as I contribute historical and Biblical fact.

Refute me. Point by point. I dare you.

quote:Originally posted by waterboy
For instance, what is your proof that a homosexual brought Aids to America? None. Could have been (probably was) due to blood transfusions, intravenous drug usage or even animals. But that doesn't fit your scheme and then we would have to demonize doctors, hospitals, animal labs and hemophiliacs. Just doesn't work for your religion, does it?

All personal attack and no fact yourself. I will get it tomorrow when I come back to play!

Silly little preacher's boy. Learn life's lessons on your own. I could accept your name calling, your smugness, your general condescension and overt immaturity but refusing to answer my one true criticism of your remark about the origin of Aids excludes you from my discourse list.

One tip though before I bow out and return to the comfort of my intolerant, moral relativism. (I'm only intolerant of those who disagree with me!) Work at differentiating and separating the competing forces of politics, spiritualism and religion. My time too precious.

[Rico]

Originally posted by truth4freedom.

quote:
There is no homosexual gene, and therefore no way to genetically engineer a way to create or prevent it's presence in a human being. All the hype about being unable to deny the natural urges and ones God given homosexuality can be summed up quite clearly this column written by my favorite college professor Dr Mike S Adams...

I noticed your favorite Professor teaches Criminology.. In North Carolina...!

Tell me Jeremy... How is it that a Professor of Criminology is thought to know more about Science than the other Scientist and experts on the subject of this debate..?

And one final thing... Do you suppose that Dr. Kamau Kambon, also of North Carolina, should be thought of as a world class philosopher because some absorb his venom at the same rate that you absorb "Dogma and Exorcisms".........?  

"Live and let live..." Tranquilino Altamirano 1986 A.D.

[aoxamaxoa]

quote:Originally posted by truth4freedom

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Hey, I want to know your frame of reference. So, it has plenty to do with it.

Honestly, I was making my typical sarcastic remark to newbies who act as though religious beliefs are something you wear on your sleeve.....that and the question is the most asked question around town. Comes before "what's your name?" and "what do you do?".

Besides, I started this thread giving me the right to ask follow up questions.

Great! Heavy sarcasm is my favorite method of communication. I can tell we'll fast become friends.

Truth is, I'm a preachers kid, and after observing the game of church politics, and the way people treat the Gospel with such contempt, I hold church in my home with my wife and myself. I am currently looking for a good church to get involved with.

I believe religion, true religion should permeate every area of your life, just as post modernism does with many here. I'm preaching and you're preaching. We both have differing world views and what's so hard about debating those?

I'm sorry, where are my manners. My name is Jeremy, and I work at an international company arranging services for their VIP clients. I am also very interested and involved in Conservative grassroots politics.

Ask away!

"My religion is kindness"
The Dalai Lama

"Direct your eye right inward, and you'll find
A thousand regions in your mind
Yet undiscovered. Travel them and be
Expert in home-cosmography."
Thoreau, Walden

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by truth4freedom


I believe you are in need of more preaching, and less life. You're just another intolerant moral relativist with no original thoughts or arguments, ignoring that the fathers of modern science were strong Christians and not refuting anything I say, but attacking me personally as I contribute historical and Biblical fact.

Refute me. Point by point. I dare you.

Oh, pick me, please...

I'll take "The Fathers of Modern Science were Strong Christians" for $500 please...

What an interesting world you live in... a world of re-writing history, calling tolerant people "intolerant" and listing yourself as an example of "diversity."

You've married politics and religion again... you've deified all sorts of people who agree with your dogma... you are the LORD AND MASTER of circular arguments....

Welcome to the world of modern Republi-christianity... a legacy that stains the traditional republican party and stains the questioning legacy of christianity... moral relativism is especially prevalent for all those modern republi-christians who treat their friends to the New Testament and people they don't know/don't like to the Old Testament... talk about "moral relativism"... welcome to the republi-christian's "leviticus buffet."

These folks just don't understand the differences between charismatic/fundamentalist christians and the deists who founded this country...

Your opinions are lifted from Liberty Univ and Bob Jones Univ texts... your agenda is something the founding fathers and all honorable scientists seeking truth would scorn... your religion has forsaken the mystery/reverence for yah-weh and replaced it with a grandly deluded "personal relationship" with Jesus.

[roozle]

Jeremy, I honestly don't know how you can consider yourself a "religious" man yet you do nothing but spew intolerance and judgement of another group of people.

Stop preaching and open up your heart and embrace all the differences that make us unique human beings.  You may learn a thing or two.

I still don't get how two people loving each other (whatever sex they are) can be so offensive to some people.  I'm not sure how it affects you whatsoever.

[BKDotCom]

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