Why do we "need" a 41st Street Bridge?

[deinstein]

I mean...do you want to change that entire area from industrial to retail/residential? I'm confused on how you're going to develop the area otherwise. I also don't get why people think the river needs to be developed. It's not the Columbia River or Russian River...it's muddy, half empty and polluted. But, it's up to you guys...

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

I mean...do you want to change that entire area from industrial to retail/residential? I'm confused on how you're going to develop the area otherwise. I also don't get why people think the river needs to be developed. It's not the Columbia River or Russian River...it's muddy, half empty and polluted. But, it's up to you guys...

It's been well stated that priority #1 is getting water in the river. To do otherwise would be stupid. OKC has spent millions making two rivers (one river and a canal) and we won't even bother watering ours. River-facing development (the refineries are only in one area and that is north of most proposed developments) will be very popular. If you build an apartment facing a river with water in it, you won't be able to charge too much.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

I mean...do you want to change that entire area from industrial to retail/residential? I'm confused on how you're going to develop the area otherwise. I also don't get why people think the river needs to be developed. It's not the Columbia River or Russian River...it's muddy, half empty and polluted. But, it's up to you guys...

Well, you got one thing right. Its not the Columbia or the Russian. The rest you're wrong. Its empty half the time which is an important distinction. It could be half full all the time with a little work. And what particular pollution are you referring to? Typical native remarks unsupported by reality.

Is there anything in Tulsa's plans that you're happy with?

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

I mean...do you want to change that entire area from industrial to retail/residential? I'm confused on how you're going to develop the area otherwise. I also don't get why people think the river needs to be developed. It's not the Columbia River or Russian River...it's muddy, half empty and polluted. But, it's up to you guys...

One thing to keep in mind when talking about massive infrastructure like bridges is that you don't plan 1 year out or 5 years out, but 50 years out. With better access, the west side along 41st Street might very well develop differently than its historic pattern over the next 2 generations.

When the Broken Arrow Expressway opened in 1969, the city of BA had about 10,000 residents.

[deinstein]

Refinery dumping, city waste, outright litter on the banks...you know there is a lot of pollution there and not much effort compared to other places is there to clean it up. It's a cess pool.

And I'm all for progressing Tulsa, but it sure as well isn't going...'OH MAN, A RIVER! Uh, BIG BODY OF WATER...LET'S DEVELOP IT!' or...'YEAH, AN ARENA...LIKE THE FORD CENTER!'...OR...'OKLAHOMA CITY IS THE BEST CITY EVER, LET'S COPY THEM!'

How about...

-More biking lanes.
-Better education.
-Better/More maintained roads.
-More sidewalks.
-Better planned streets.
-More trails.
-Less highways.
-Oh yeah, better education.
-Developing land already there to be developed.
-More trees.
-Maintaining historical areas/sites.
-More money to the arts.

Seriously...a bridge at 41st Street? Give me a break...and development along a dirty river?

And stop trying to fill it up. Let it take it's natural course unless you absolutely have to build a dam for energy reasons. Jesus, people.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

Refinery dumping, city waste, outright litter on the banks...you know there is a lot of pollution there and not much effort compared to other places is there to clean it up. It's a cess pool.

And I'm all for progressing Tulsa, but it sure as well isn't going...'OH MAN, A RIVER! Uh, BIG BODY OF WATER...LET'S DEVELOP IT!' or...'YEAH, AN ARENA...LIKE THE FORD CENTER!'...OR...'OKLAHOMA CITY IS THE BEST CITY EVER, LET'S COPY THEM!'

How about...

-More biking lanes.
-Better education.
-Better/More maintained roads.
-More sidewalks.
-Better planned streets.
-More trails.
-Less highways.
-Oh yeah, better education.
-Developing land already there to be developed.
-More trees.
-Maintaining historical areas/sites.
-More money to the arts.

Seriously...a bridge at 41st Street? Give me a break...and development along a dirty river?

And stop trying to fill it up. Let it take it's natural course unless you absolutely have to build a dam for energy reasons. Jesus, people.

I'm about as critical of this berg(sp?) as anyone here. In fact, I'm looking for employment outside of the state I've lived in for my whole life. But I know bs when I read it. Your vitriol is hiding the fact that you're just yelling out stuff right and left with out anything to back up your remarks. If our river is so polluted and hideous why hasn't it been listed on EPA's list? Too busy with the chat piles? You ever been to a cesspool? This is not even close. What cities are you comparing our river to btw.  Hey, Einstein, what is it that the refineries are dumping into the river? Please share. RecycleMichael meets with them pretty regularly and can share with them what you know. But I'm guessing its just throw the firebomb, don't talk details, eh?

So you don't like the arena, you don't like the river, you don't want downtown development if it includes WalMart, and on and on. My, my. Kind of picky. Oh yeah, you like bike paths, art and education, good roads, history. All the stuff every city our size has. From my travels they all pretty much have the same problems to solve too. Including bad roads.

All those things aren't paid for with ad valorem taxes alone. You need new business growth and development to fund increased consumer purchasing to collect increased taxes. To get that business growth you have to appeal to new businesses with something interesting to go with your education and bike paths. That is what this community is trying to do.

I you want to just live in a well run community with good roads and lots of well educated joggers and no entertainment, I suggest you move to a smaller town away from a river and out of the midwest. Avoid anything with industrial capacity, or much diversity of opinion. May I suggest Roswell NM? Provo UT? Cause you sure ain't going to be happy here.

[deinstein]

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2006/December/06_enrd_832.html

[deinstein]

And I have just as much of a right to be picky about what goes in my area of Tulsa as anyone else. I also have a right to say, that's a bad idea...if we are wasting money on a bridge. And I'm pretty sure giving money to the arts supports entertainment.

I also find it funny I'm picky for not wanting to waste money on a bridge we don't need. An arena with no planned events and no professional teams. And god forgive me, I don't want a Wal-Mart downtown.

Maybe you're just to easy to sell something to and you don't take enough pride in your city to make it a better place by choosing wisely.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2006/December/06_enrd_832.html

That's it?! That's the major pollution dumping you're basing your remarks on? Jeez, man. That doesn't make for a polluted river. When you say polluted people conjure up images of oil spills, toxic chemicals and burning rivers. This is hardly that. This is an isolated event that was punished. Happens in industry all over the country. You should be encouraged that there is testing and they were caught.

Do you know how many gallons of river flowed by that plant each year? Research that then divide it by the treated wastewater that came out of that plant.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

And I have just as much of a right to be picky about what goes in my area of Tulsa as anyone else. I also have a right to say, that's a bad idea...if we are wasting money on a bridge. And I'm pretty sure giving money to the arts supports entertainment.

I also find it funny I'm picky for not wanting to waste money on a bridge we don't need. An arena with no planned events and no professional teams. And god forgive me, I don't want a Wal-Mart downtown.

Maybe you're just to easy to sell something to and you don't take enough pride in your city to make it a better place by choosing wisely.

Don't let the facts or the opinions of those who live in the area and who are familiar with urban planning get in your way D. If you check back towards the start of this thread I would have agreed with you. But the case has been made.

No one is questioning your right to be a closed minded, elitist, nimby. Consider this. In a city of 3/4million or so, about 20% of them have had the higher education that you are priviledged to have received(I'm assuming). The other 80%? They don't care for opera, the arts, or running along the river. For some real fun, figure out just what percentage of taxpayers will actually use any of these paths in a given year. They work what you would call menial jobs, they shop WalMart and they pay taxes. Your interest in a developed downtown with walkable neighborhoods and sophisticated small retail shops under stylish lofts means nothing to them. They live in the burbs. They pay taxes, in the burbs. And they are no more or less important than you. Its not all about you, your good taste, your good education.

Apparently, the only arena you would approve of would already be booked in advance. The only stadium worth building is for a professional team with a big following. Good luck with that mindset. BTW, I'm sure every evangelical within 4 states is eyeing our arena as the place to be when the world ends. If ya gotta go, why not go iconic! Big money there.

[deinstein]

Way to double our cities population, then stereotype everyone (including me) and be absolutely wrong. Then top it off by basically saying we should keep our standards low, because they are obviously working, right?

[rwarn17588]

Don't bother, waterboy. Einstein has proven to be factually challenged.

[deinstein]

Yeah, check out his response when I debunked his opinion the Arkansas River wasn't polluted by refineries. No facts there, well...besides a government source.

[waterboy]

Originally posted by deinstein

Yeah, check out his response when I debunked his opinion the Arkansas River wasn't polluted by refineries. No facts there, well...besides a government source.
[/quote

You are such a dunce. One refinery was penalized for hiding releases that were in excess of permitted. And you jump to refineries (plural) and pollution? Then use that to say the river shouldn't be developed? Yeah, you smacked me good young'un.

[waterboy]

Okay, here's your pollution. In one day Sinclair was alleged to have released 1million gallons of wastewater that wasn't adequately treated. It had oil and wax in it. They did this for two years. That sounds like a lot to you I'm sure. But put it in perspective. It was water, oil and wax that mixed with the river water. That water then diluted the discharge and moved it on downstream.

Here's how much it was diluted. I don't know the capacity of the river at that time but I know the typical releases. Lets assume that the dam was releasing 10,000 cfs. Thats cubic feet per second and that would be a low average for the year. A cubic foot of water is .13368 gallon so that 1 million gallons is 133,680cubic feet of untreated waste water.

But it is going into a river that is running 10,000 cubic feet every second. In a day that would be 864,000,000 cubic feet of water and that doesn't include what was already in the river! That amounts to .00015% of the river or about 1 cubic foot of untreated wastewater for every 6,463 cubic foot of river each day.

Now, Sinclair knows better, and they deserved to be penalized. But is that enough to call the river polluted and unsuited for development David?