Yep, Life begins at birth

[rwarn17588]

Making dumb assumptions about me again, eh, guido?

[RecycleMichael]

There is no way this thread won't degenerate into name-calling and insult-posting.

Abortion discussions have nothing to do with anything the TulsaNow forum was started for.

I implore you guys to stop or take it somewhere else.

[guido911]

Are you kidding recycle? You were waist deep in the topic during this thread.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5345&whichpage=4

BTW, RW: My "assumption" was based on your failure to ever answer my question I posed to you in that thread.

[RecycleMichael]

I recall trying to make a joke during that thread. I also remember you trying to bait everybody and arguing with every poster.

Now you start another thread and try to do it again.

I also think that calling people who are pro-choice "aborters" is wrong. Do you not understand what the word "choice" means?

My wife and I are both pro-choice, but we chose to have babies and never considered an abortion. I guess we are pro-choice and you are no choice.

Is this topic your idea of public discourse?

Find the most divisive issue you can and then insult everyone else in the room? I bet you don't get invited back to many parties...

[rwarn17588]

Hmmm ... I guess I did fail to answer the question, simply because I got very busy, hardly surfed at all on TulsaNow for a week, came back, forgot about the thread and moved on to others.

Oh, well.

And funny, now that I look over that thread again nearly four weeks later, I see that you, Guido, failed to clearly answer this question that I posed first:

Do you want to ban birth control or not?

[TheArtist]

^ I never saw that question?

[guido911]

RW: "Do you want to ban birth control or not?" No on banning all birth control. Not practical or enforceable. As I wrote in that thread, use of birth control can sometimes lead to unsafe sexual practices that can lead to STDs. How about an answer to my question now.

Recycle: "My wife and I are both pro-choice, but we chose to have babies." Whatever. You can play your semantics game all you want. If you are pro-choice, you support the "choice" of abortion. If you are comfortable with your pro choice beliefs, you should not have to fear what your belief means in its entirety.    

Artist: I think its on page three of the thread.

[MichaelC]

Here's how to beat abortion:  Prove in a court of law (rather than the Tulsa Now Forum) that an embryo or fertilized egg is as much of a human being as you or anyone else.  It's not impossible, but it's really complicated.  Good luck.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

RW: "Do you want to ban birth control or not?" No on banning all birth control. Not practical or enforceable. As I wrote in that thread, use of birth control can sometimes lead to unsafe sexual practices that can lead to STDs. How about an answer to my question now.

Recycle: "My wife and I are both pro-choice, but we chose to have babies." Whatever. You can play your semantics game all you want. If you are pro-choice, you support the "choice" of abortion. If you are comfortable with your pro choice beliefs, you should not have to fear what your belief means in its entirety.    

Artist: I think its on page three of the thread.

Now I am really lost, this is page one isn't it?

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

Here's how to beat abortion:  Prove in a court of law (rather than the Tulsa Now Forum) that an embryo or fertilized egg is as much of a human being as you or anyone else.  It's not impossible, but it's really complicated.  Good luck.

Well, funny you should mention that....

By NICOLE MARSHALL World Staff Writer (Tulsa World)
1/18/2007

In the first case of its kind in Tulsa County, a man was charged Wednesday with two counts of first-degree murder in the homicides of his pregnant girlfriend and their unborn child.

New legislation that provides the basis for a first-degree murder charge in the death of the fetus, which had reached 15 weeks' gestation, was part of a controversial bill that also included measured restrictions on abortions.

One of the provisions of the law, which took effect in November, recognizes an unborn child as a separate victim if a crime is committed against its mother.

A fetus can be a homicide victim from "the moment of conception," based on the definition of an unborn child.

Jesus Francisco Hernandez was charged Wednesday with two counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of Aletheia Kikugawa and her fetus in Tulsa, Assistant District Attorney Bill Musseman said.

"It is the first such case filed in Tulsa County (and) may be the first in the state based on the way the law was defined Nov. 1, 2006," he said.

Hernandez had blood on his clothing and was driving his pregnant girl-friend's car when he was arrested in connection with her stabbing death Jan. 9, police records state.

Kikugawa, 32, was found dead by her ex-husband at her home at the Colonial Park Apartments, 7633 E. 21st St.

Witnesses initially said they thought she was about four to five months' pregnant. However, the medical examiner determined that the fetus had reached about 15 weeks' gestation and died as a result of its mother's death, Detective Vic Regalado said.

"During the investigation, it was found that the suspect was aware of her pregnancy," Regalado said. "Due to recent changes to state law, the unborn child is listed as a victim of first-degree murder."

The new law makes a new class of victim covered by criminal statutes, Musseman explained.

State law defines homicide as the killing of one human being by another. The new law specifies that a "human being" includes an unborn child as defined by state statute.

The statute defines an "unborn child" as "the unborn offspring of human beings from the moment of conception, through pregnancy and until live birth . . . ."

However, the definition of homicide includes an exemption for "acts which cause the death of an unborn child if those acts were committed during a legal abortion to which the pregnant woman consented."

Similar cases in the past have relied on whether the fetus was viable.

In 1995, a man was sentenced in Tulsa County to life in prison without parole possible for murdering a pregnant teenager and her fetus.

James Ray Collins pleaded guilty to two counts of first-degree murder in the shooting of Valerie Marie Bennett, 18. Bennett was 6 1/2 months' pregnant when she was killed.

At that time, prosecutors said state law and a ruling by the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals in an Oklahoma County case allowed for criminal prosecution for killing a fetus by inflicting injury upon the mother.

In 1994, the state appeals court had ruled that an "unborn fetus that was viable at the time of injury is a human being, which may be the subject of a homicide."

Gov. Brad Henry signed Senate Bill 1742, which contained the new provisions, in May after receiving more than 700 calls and e-mails concerning the measure.

The calls were about equally divided for and against the measure, the governor's spokesman said previously.

[tim huntzinger]

How about this:  a perfectly healthy baby is scheduled for the procedure, a group of anti-abortion radicals have vowed to stop it.

Pretend you a cop called to the location: do you arrest the radicals once they have crossed the threshold of the clinic?

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

Here's how to beat abortion:  Prove in a court of law (rather than the Tulsa Now Forum) that an embryo or fertilized egg is as much of a human being as you or anyone else.  It's not impossible, but it's really complicated.  Good luck.

Well, funny you should mention that....

All that does is define a fetus as "human" for the specific purposes of prosecuting a homicide.    It assumes that the fetus was intended to be born by its mother, which is normally a safe assumption.

You'd have to prove that all are human.  Not just that all fetuses intended to be born by their mothers are human, nor that all fetuses have the potential to be human, nor that one should be prosecuted twice for killing a pregnant mother.

[tim huntzinger]

So none of them cross-breed freaks that come from stuff depicted in the Sundance horse-man love movie are safe nowheres?

Not in 'Merca.  Those cross-breed, unwanted horse-man beasts are probably safe in the rest of the civilized world, but in 'Merca, we got better things to spend our money and time on then rearing another wasted suit of skin.

Oh, and all I know about 'inducing labor' is that it is shorthand for 'prepare for a Ceasarian (sic) birth.'  Which, I thought, meant I should bring salad and croutons.

Jonathan Swift, where are you?

[MH2010]

So a fetus is a human when someone wants it to be and it's not when they don't.  Now that is great science!

[MichaelC]

The point is that a fetus or fertilized egg (or whatever point in the pregnancy process you wish), would have to be given the same rights as a human that has already been born.  That's not  the case right.  

I don't know of anyone that's particulary fond of abortion.  But, if you're going to allow the gov't to legislate out a medical proceedure (which is essentially what Pro-Life is asking), you're going to need a very good reason.  Something other than "we don't like it" or "we think its murder."  You'd have to convince the gov't to afford the same rights across the board.

I personally have gone far beyond given a rip on whether abortion is legal or not.  I simply don't care.  But if we're going to have these discussions, and we will, might as well talk about the facts on the ground.