Yep, Life begins at birth

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

So a fetus is a human when someone wants it to be and it's not when they don't.  Now that is great science!

More like great legislating.    

Science didn't cause that quirk.  I doubt science gives a rip about whether abortion is illegal or not.

[tim huntzinger]

Unless it was the inhuman offspring of Brittny Spears and that injured Kentucky Derby winner.  THAT could be kind of cool. And if it was an inhuman GIRL crossbreed, we could start her off real innocent-like and then turn the thing into a real naughty horsey!It could be the best thing since Tonaya Harding, all captured on digital video for resell! And we could all laugh at the freak of nature and feel better about ourselves.

So, you see, if it pleases us it is worth giving birth to.

[RecycleMichael]

Barbaro and Brittany?

Wow, Tim. You got quite the imagination.

I am kinda afraid to hear the made up nursery rhymes your kid will hear...

[tim huntzinger]

This thread should be retitled 'Parents' life ends at birth.'  Sleep deprivation kicking in.

When the surly teen was a rugrat I would read 'Bedtime for Francis' (lil' badger scared of the shadows).  I really hyped that up, reading low and sinister-like, 'she would grab my shirt and smack me, 'Daddy! Stop!' but wanted me to keep reading anyway.  THAT princess is the lead in 'Little Shop of Horrors' in March.

[guido911]

And now there's this:  

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/20/D8NDJ0O00.html

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/02_02/Amillia190207_468x316.jpg

Pro-abortion advocates are deeply saddened.

[cannon_fodder]

Eww!  Those feet look like hot tomoles!

Per abortion laws,  I give no credence to the religious nor moral arguments for banning abortion.  Governments should not be in the business of promoting my, or anyone else's moral or religious code.   If they do, it ceases to have any meaning as an act you are forced to do can hardly be seen as a servitude towards your god(s).   not to mention the obvious issue of having to decide who's god(s) and morals are the correct ones.

I am also, , generally, against governmental interference on most levels. The ability to interfere is the ability to chose whom to favor and whom to repress and the opportunity to interfere with my constitutionally protected rights.

However, I also feel that any creature capable of thought deserves protection from wantonly unnecessary pain and suffering.  This extends from Humans to Chickens to Frogs.  Note the wording of "wantonly unnecessary pain," if a chicken has some pain while being slaughtered for consumption - so be it.  But if a procedure is offered that accomplishes the same goal without torturing the bird, I would prefer that.

Being alive is defined as having the ability to reproduce on a cellular level.  The cells in my nose are able to reproduce as are the cells of the plant on my desk - they are alive.  However, the wood cells of my desk are no longer able to divide and are thus, not living.  The question is not when does life begin - but when we are going to afford PROTECTION for that life.

The little world of belief's I have created for myself would indicate protection is afforded when a creature can think.  In a fetus, that would mean brain functions on the level of being able to react to surroundings with some sort of spacial awareness (I think, therefor I am). However, my argument would only afford this life the same protection I would the chicken without further examination.

Further protection is provided to humans because it is essential to a functioning society.  The most ancient of tribal laws (not Hammurabi, the 10 commandments) provide a good guide for what people have to do in order to live together in a community and not destroy themselves.   If we steel from one another, lie in court or kill each other things get ugly (likewise, life is easier if we all worship and believe the exact same thing without question).

In addition to being essential a functioning society we have more recently attributed certain protections to people by virtue of them being human.  The idea being that all humans are an advanced race capable of complex thought.  The advanced thought setting us apart from animals and making us worthy of protection.

Thus, a fetus should be granted protection when it is capable of advanced thought (ie - self awareness) or when doing so is essential to a functioning society.  Society has and is functioning with the current abortion laws in place.

THEREFOR, protection should be granted to an unborn child when they are capable of human-like thought.  While it is INCREDIBLY hard to find unbiased information on this, it seems a fetus has a developed brain around 32 weeks.  Similarly, some children born at this point have a chance of survival without intervention... which is the current status quo.

So there's my attempt at approaching what is most often viewed as a moral question - logically.

[iplaw]

quote:THEREFOR, protection should be granted to an unborn child when they are capable of human-like thought.

Using your logic we could rightfully abort several adults on this forum...[}:)]

[rwarn17588]

We know guido is pro-life because he regularly gives birth to turds on this forum.

[]

[iplaw]

I do find the story quite amazing.  The pictures are heartbreaking, but at least there was a good end to the story.

CF:

I think the medical definition of life is a heartbeat and brainwave function, which happens very early in the pregnancy.

quote:
Governments should not be in the business of promoting my, or anyone else's moral or religious code.

Unfortunately they have to...In the words of GK Chesterton, "any denunciation implies a moral doctrine of some sort."  You can't have society say X is wrong without invoking some sort of moral law by which to differentiate the good act from the bad act...am I saying that we should use the Koran or the Bible, no, but what I am saying is we are most certainly invoking a moral law.

[cannon_fodder]

If heartbeat and brain waves are the indication of life then plants, bacteria, viruses (viri?), algae, mold, and paramecium's arent alive.  They have neither brain waves nor a heartbeat

An exact definition is nearly impossible to agree upon and actually entails the final exam question in many biology and philosophy classes.  From a scientific standpoint, life generally requires at least:
1) the ability to metabolise or change some input into a form of energy
2) The ability to grow
3) the ability to reproduce

Some add they must be able to adapt (through natural selection), respond to stimuli, and achieve motion... but are certainly not included in a minimal definition.  Those elements are more generally restricted to the definition of "animal" not life in general.

A single cell with the ability to reproduce fits the generally accepted guidelines as a life form.  While your more restrictive definition would severely limit what is alive and merely describe "animals."

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

If heartbeat and brain waves are the indication of life then plants, bacteria, viruses (viri?), algae, mold, and paramecium's arent alive.  They have neither brain waves nor a heartbeat

An exact definition is nearly impossible to agree upon and actually entails the final exam question in many biology and philosophy classes.  From a scientific standpoint, life generally requires at least:
1) the ability to metabolise or change some input into a form of energy
2) The ability to grow
3) the ability to reproduce

Some add they must be able to adapt (through natural selection), respond to stimuli, and achieve motion... but are certainly not included in a minimal definition.  Those elements are more generally restricted to the definition of "animal" not life in general.

A single cell with the ability to reproduce fits the generally accepted guidelines as a life form.  While your more restrictive definition would severely limit what is alive and merely describe "animals."

I think we're getting far too pedantic in our definition.  I am speaking about when a doctor pronounces you dead/alive in a medical sense...

[Conan71]

So says the wise man:

"Life begins when the kids move away and the cat dies."

[iplaw]

Speaking of that, anyone who owns a cat should be immediately investigated by Homeland Security...especially if they own more than 2.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Speaking of that, anyone who owns a cat should be immediately investigated by Homeland Security...especially if they own more than 2.

Why?

[cannon_fodder]

Unless they are on a farm.

My mom owns more than 2, and probably needs some sort of investigation/intervention.