Comparing Tulsa to other cities

[perspicuity85]

While I am excited about Tulsa's ongoing development projects, I still notice Tulsa to be behind the curve.  Tulsa is behind many smaller cities in terms of urban life and venues.  Because of that, many smaller cities are perceived to be larger than Tulsa and more attractive places to live or visit.  Here's one example I came across, Des Moines, IA, metro populaion: 522,454.  Tulsa metro population: 887,715.  (2005 US Census estimate).
http://www.desmoinesdowntownliving.com/
http://www.desmoinesnightlife.com/
Wells Fargo Arena- Des Moines

[TheArtist]

Yes, on the one hand I do believe we are behind the curve, but, I also think some of this is perception.  If the Des Moines examples are used, we could do similar websites and blow them away.  Imagine the Philtower lofts, Mayo lofts and east end developments on a "Tulsadowntown living" website.  I think we could have a great "Tulsanightlife" website.  And our new arena and refurbished convention center will do quite nicely in comparison.  

This does point out though what several other threads on here have stated.

Tulsa does not advertise and promote what it does have.

Des Moines has been going places and a lot of it is the result of the buzz it has put out there over the last several years.  I have heard over and over about Des Moines.  Yet really what they have pales in comparison to what we have.  Yet I doubt that people in other states could say they have heard over and over about Tulsa. I remember several years ago when they started their advertising strategies.  They didn't have much to to on at all.  But they hyped up and sold what they did have and it created positive results which they then add to their "buzz campaign", keeping the ball rolling. Yet Tulsa?  Where is that? Isn't that a town in  Arizona? (I have literally been asked that before)

I really really wonder what happens with all that money and effort our state and city spend to advertise and promote us.  I don't see it on the web thats for sure. The "Oklahoma" commercials suck.  They flash a dozen images so fast you have no idea what they are if you arent familiar with them, or where the things are. Then the odd thing is that when I am visiting my parents or friends in other states like Arkansas or Texas I neeever see any of those commercials yet I see their commercials here in our state.  Why are they spending that money here to flash pictures of things we know about ( or new people dont know about aka Philbrook and still dont when they get a flash of it for half a second along with a dozen other images). I wonder if they show those commercials here just so it makes it look like they are actually doing something for us?  This could all be done soooooo much better.  We are being robbed and crapped on by our advertising commission, or whatever it is, IMO.

[Double A]

Here's something for our friends out south and scattered throughout the burbs. Now they can enjoy    downtown nightlife live as it unfolds from the comfort and security of their cookie cutter compounds. They call it:

Cazcam

[aoxamaxoa]

Tulsa will do well when the polar ice caps melt, the sea rises, and chaos ensues along the coasts. Sad but true.

Haven't we seen this thread a million times under varying titles?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

Tulsa will do well when the polar ice caps melt, the sea rises, and chaos ensues along the coasts. Sad but true.

Haven't we seen this thread a million times under varying titles?

And everytime it becomes controversial. Sometimes, Artist, perception is based on reality. The reason they flash those so fast is there is much repetition and little meat. After you show Philbrook, the rowing crew, the skyline, Blue Dome and Gilcrease what do you show? A view of the expensive lofts at the Philtower? We know as natives that there is more but we either we aren't getting the news out or the news is pedestrian in nature. OKC has most of those flashes BTW because they do things there. Ugly town of active people.

I often meet movers/shakers from Tulsa in odd places. Yesterday at the boat show. His view of Tulsa was from a very connected level. Even he spoke of the grindingly slow pace of economic development efforts in Tulsa. Lots of egos that have to be dealt with. Lots of greedy people who own land downtown that have moved the focus of development to suit their own interests.

We need something big to happen here that will shake up the status quo and dislodge some boulders out of the way.

[mdunn]

lol,Des Moines,Iowa was one of the most boring places I ever been.

[aoxamaxoa]

Waterboy! SNAP!

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

After you show Philbrook, the rowing crew, the skyline, Blue Dome and Gilcrease what do you show?

Sounds like a call to action to me.  There's a lot more to show, but I really can't find it in any one place.  We should spend some time beefing up Tulsa's Wikipedia pages, or that travel wiki, or even our own links section.  How about a Google Earth community effort?  Yes?  No?  Any ideas?

[aoxamaxoa]

St. Louis poised for entertainment upswing

By Betsy Taylor
ASSOCIATED PRESS
02/03/2007

ST. LOUIS (AP) -- When Tom Bussmann first moved into a loft condominium six years ago, this city's downtown scene was "pretty bleak," a dilapidated urban core largely known for a mass exodus at the end of the work day.

But St. Louis is shedding its after-hours ghost town feel.

Three new entertainment districts are planned: a casino complex along the Mississippi riverfront, Ballpark Village at the new Busch Stadium and the Bottle District just north of the Edward Jones Dome.

Bussmann, co-owner of the Philip Slein art gallery who works on now-bustling Washington Avenue, counts himself among those looking forward to the additions.

"There's definite signs of life now," Bussmann said.

For decades, St. Louis saw its population decline as the wealthy and middle class moved to the suburbs. The city's population was about 850,000 in the 1950's; by 2000, it dipped below 350,000.

Thanks in part to tax credits, developers have taken a liking to a downtown filled with beautiful old buildings that had fallen into disrepair. Five years ago, many were boarded up and vacant. Today, those buildings house condos, boutiques, restaurants and nightclubs.

For the first time in a half-century, the city's population is on the rise again, up 1.2 percent in 2005. About 10,000 people now live downtown, an increase of about a third in the past five years, said Jim Cloar, president and chief executive officer of the Downtown St. Louis Partnership.

Soon, residents and visitors will have even more to do, thanks to the three new projects pumping more than $1 billion in development into the city -- all three within view of the Gateway Arch and walking distance from the convention center.

Patrick Welch, an economics professor at Saint Louis University, noted the city already has a reputation for its arts and entertainment -- from blues joints to one of the nation's most highly regarded symphonies. Big-time entertainment districts can only add to the options for a region that already attracts 20 million visitors annually.

"I think there could be a useful synergy that's being created," he said.

Las Vegas-based Pinnacle Entertainment Inc. is building a $430 million casino and hotel complex called Lumiere Place, with plans that ultimately could transform 20 acres next to the Laclede's Landing district, including new residential development. The current construction includes a walkway across the street from the Edward Jones Dome that will tunnel under Interstate 70 to near the casino complex, said Pinnacle spokesman Mack Bradley.

The casino complex was designed by Marnell Architecture, the firm responsible for the Mirage and Bellagio resorts in Las Vegas. A 24-story glass and steel tower will be lit from within to frame the building, intending to create an iconic feature for the district. The casino, scheduled to open later this year, will have 40 gaming tables and 2,000 slots. A 200-room hotel will include a luxury spa, and the complex is planned with a nightclub and six dining options, including a steakhouse and an Asian restaurant.

To the south, the St. Louis Cardinals are working to develop a six-block neighborhood called Ballpark Village. It will be built next to the new Busch Stadium.

The Cardinals are working with The Cordish Company of Baltimore on the project. Cardinals senior vice president for business development Bill DeWitt III said construction could begin in April or May on the $387 million first phase, scheduled to open in spring 2009. The plan calls for residential, office and retail components. The development could eventually raise the project value to $650 million.

"I think it'll really take downtown St. Louis to the next level," DeWitt said.

While 81 home dates draw sellout crowds to most games, "people have traditionally gone to a ball game and gone home," DeWitt said. The Cardinals are looking to change that trend, in part by planning plenty of free events to draw people to the district on nongame days.

Concert series, wine tastings, book or job fairs and family nights are among the special events being considered to attract visitors.

The district could include 10 to 15 bars and restaurants with a boutique retail area.

The Cardinals Experience will combine a restaurant and Cardinals Hall of Fame museum, featuring memorabilia and a spot where future inductions can be held, DeWitt said. A grocery store, bookstore, a place for live music and brew pub are among the potential tenants being considered.

Just north of the Edward Jones Dome and along I-70 is the 17-acre area known as The Bottle District, site of another major development.

A large green bottle-shaped sign advertising Vess soda, a St. Louis-made product, is the most famous landmark of an area with a long tradition for brewing and bottling companies. The district is taking its name from thousands of distinctive bottles unearthed as work began on the $300 million complex.

Three brothers, who are the third-generation owners of St. Louis-based McGuire Moving and Storage, are working to transform the property.

Dan McGuire was in Atlanta when the St. Louis Rams won the 2000 Super Bowl and liked the energy there. He began to wonder why something similar couldn't be done in his city. His project has changed course along the way, and parted ways with an outside developer, but he remains committed to it. Plans call for an eight-screen movie theater, as many as six restaurants, an upscale bowling alley and martini bar, a park and residential development.

Demolition has already taken place along five blocks. McGuire said renovation to two existing buildings could begin this spring, with all the work taking about two years.

St. Louis-based Forum Studio is the architect, though McGuire said talks continue with architect Daniel Libeskind, the ground zero master planner who also designed a new wing for the Denver Museum of Art and the Jewish Museum in Berlin, about designing something for the district. The overall look of the district has not been finalized.

But those watching the changes downtown like what they're seeing so far. Architect John Berendzen, president of the American Institute of Architects in St. Louis, called the three plans "very handsome proposals" and said more contemporary buildings -- such as Pinnacle's -- next to turn-of-the-century properties will be refreshing.

"It's an exciting time to be downtown," he said. "It's never looked better."

[USRufnex]

alright, I'll eventually bite on this one, just need some more time to compose a suitably long-winded response...

I ended up moving to Tulsa after thinking I'd be moving from Chicagoland to either Rochester, NY or Indianapolis.... in the event of a "tie," I'd move to Tulsa... but it really wasn't a tie... Tulsa won out for a few prime reasons...

more later.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
Tulsa does not advertise and promote what it does have.

Des Moines has been going places and a lot of it is the result of the buzz it has put out there over the last several years.  I have heard over and over about Des Moines.  Yet really what they have pales in comparison to what we have.  Yet I doubt that people in other states could say they have heard over and over about Tulsa. I remember several years ago when they started their advertising strategies.  They didn't have much to to on at all.  But they hyped up and sold what they did have and it created positive results which they then add to their "buzz campaign", keeping the ball rolling. Yet Tulsa?  Where is that? Isn't that a town in  Arizona? (I have literally been asked that before)

I really really wonder what happens with all that money and effort our state and city spend to advertise and promote us.  I don't see it on the web thats for sure. The "Oklahoma" commercials suck.  They flash a dozen images so fast you have no idea what they are if you arent familiar with them, or where the things are. Then the odd thing is that when I am visiting my parents or friends in other states like Arkansas or Texas I neeever see any of those commercials yet I see their commercials here in our state.  Why are they spending that money here to flash pictures of things we know about ( or new people dont know about aka Philbrook and still dont when they get a flash of it for half a second along with a dozen other images). I wonder if they show those commercials here just so it makes it look like they are actually doing something for us?  This could all be done soooooo much better.  We are being robbed and crapped on by our advertising commission, or whatever it is, IMO.

My point exactly, Artist.  You hit it right on the button.  For people in a lot of cities, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.  When the citizens truly believe and engage in the redevelopment efforts, things start happening.  Des Moines is just one example.  This Spring, they are hosting Rod Stewart and Red Hot Chili Peppers concerts, respectively.  Most people in Tulsa don't think big name concerts will ever even play at the BOk Center.  Keep in mind Tulsa, when compared to Des Moines, has over 300,000 more people in the metro area to draw an audience from.  When it comes to urban living, Tulsa is about to have more historic and/or Cosmopolitan living options than most cities its size.  The Philtower lofts, Mayo, and Utica Place are truly gems that compete with almost any city's urban living options.  Tulsa needs to stop licking its wounds start aggressively promoting its assets.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by PRH

The assets we promote don't do any good when we don't have the type of industry newcomers are trained to work in.

Don't you guys get it?  There has to be an economic reason to come here.  People who don't have to work for a living aren't going to move here because of the ambience.

You've got to have modern technology jobs to draw people here.  Tulsa has no modern technology to draw new people here...just oil refineries and Victory Jesus Camp.

People don't primarily move to Tulsa to work for Whirlpool, or flip burgers at Wendy's.

We do get it.  We realize there are lots of things Tulsa needs to do.  We have had threads and talks about all of those.  Each thing affects the other and all "topics" need to be adressed. Every time we discuss one thing someone else brings up,,,well what we really need to do is...nobody is going to move here if we don't take care of, etc. But every time I or anyone else starts a discussion one thing that needs improving we can't say oh and, schools, colleges, crime, promotion/advertising, amenities, community involvement, zoning and form based codes, job growth and attraction, etc. etc.  Gets a bit long winded. []

But on your point about ambience, many people I know can live and work wherever they want, from home via computer or have their own businesses where they outsource their services anywhere in the country.  Plus, even if we were to have jobs, again I mention those businessmen who at one of the Channels meetings got up and commented that even when they flew people in, wined and dined them, offered them equal or even more pay, often couldnt get them to move here because Tulsa didn't offer the kind of lifestyle amenities they were used to. When bright, talented, young, people have the choice of where they can work,,,they choose the city they would most enjoy living in. When local businesses have a hard time drawing that "upper end" labor to a city, they find it hard not to consider moving to where they can more easily find that labor.  

Remember its the labor class that has to follow the jobs, the people who work at Whirlpool and Wendy's. The creative class make the jobs wherever they go, like the 25yo who started facelink and has hundred million dollar offers to sell.  We have a huge major fiber optic trunk line that runs right through downtown that most cities would kill for, and plenty of neat old buildings nearby where tech start up companies to tap into that line with clubs, neat restaurants, all kinds of new projects starting. In other words the kind of environment those young entreprenures like. Sounds like something we could be "promoting".  But most people don't even know we exist, or what we are about.

Its the "creative class" people of 20 and 30 somethings that start those tech jobs and companies you mentioned that Tulsa needs.  How do you propose we start those companies here without those people? Colleges might be a good start, but even colleges have to compete with colleges in other "cities".  It is a bit of a chicken and egg problem.  But I think 2 of the things we can do to draw those creative class peple is to have and promote a great "ambience" great things to see and do, and there are several ways to work on that. And to have vibrant world class colleges.  
I know a lot of people who could move here, the job thing isn't a restriction to them, but they ask WHY? What ya got?  We dont adequately promote what little we do have. Sometimes it really is about image and how you talk up "what ya got". You would be amazed at how perception and Buzz can change how people think of an area, and how that area can then actually become that.  Think of it like selling a product.  You want the generic cheap brand or the expensive designer one? And who buys what?  What kind of people do you want here? What image are we promoting?  What kind of people and results are we getting?  Wendy's or High Tech?

I am not saying its the only answer by far, but it can't hurt if its done right.

[cannon_fodder]

Des Moines has several things going for it that Tulsa does not.

#1) Its the state capital.
School children are required to memorize the city name and what state it is in country wide.  News reports on anything in the state are likely to come from the capital.  Major events, laws, swearing in's, and meetings default to the capital.

Being the state capital also adds thousands of well paid government jobs (look at the top employers in OKC - the State, the Fed., the FAA, the University of Oklahoma... gov, gov, gov, gov gov).

#2) Its the largest - and only - real city in Iowa.  If you drive through Iowa you HAVE to pass through Des Moines.

#3) Its new.  The city of Des Moines really started booming in the 1990's and hasnt stopped.   Nearly all the buildings downtown are new, the housing is mostly new, the highways - new.  People like new things.

Many of the major employers in Des Moines are new - Wells Fargo, Allstate, Citigroup, Principle Financial - are all relatively new companies to the Des Moines area and are hiring like mad. So much so they are raising area wages by attempting to hire away people from existing industries.

#4)  Its young.  The professional industries of Des Moines attract and retain young professionals.  Banking, finance, and IT are fast growing areas that attract graduates to well paying jobs.  Des Moines offers opportunities in these areas in spades.  Tulsa's heavy industries of oil and gas and aviation arent the new age office oriented industries that generally attract young college graduates.

#5) De Moines doesnt have a problem with crime.  I hate to say it like this, but statistically speaking Des Moines is a white middle class city.  The cities in America with the highest diversity are also the cities with the highest crime.  Likewise, the more heavy industry a city has the higher the crime.  You can cry racist or class-nazi or whatever you want, but unless Tulsa can buck these statistics (which hold true nearly universally nationwide), it will continue to have crime issues.

While 25% of Tulsa is considered a no-go zone by many of its residents - Des Moines has very few "blighted areas."

#6) The entire state of Iowa has a reputation of a clean, hardworking, well educated and progressive location.  Oklahoma is widely considered full of religious zealots and as backwards (new poll: best known for the musical set in the 1880's then for a building getting blown up). Those reflections have to influence the view of a city.  

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

With that said, Tulsa has many things going for it that Des Moines does not. Des Moines is indeed, a boring city.  Everything is new, but cookie cutter.  The office parks are nice, but all look alike.  The subdivisions all have the same 3 or 4 floor plans.  The population is 96% white and nearly everyone was born in Iowa.  Nearly everyone is in finance, in one way or another (even most of the IT is in support of finance).

While I like the vibrancy of Des Moines and its youthfulness, I seriously considered moving there and chose Tulsa for a plethora of reasons that everyone on this board already knows.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Des Moines has several things going for it that Tulsa does not.

We passed through Des Moines alot during the 90's as my wife's family is in Wisconsin. Note the phrase, passed through. When we had to stay over nite and make it a two day trip we stayed in Ames (home of Iowa State University I believe). Just more comfortable. Nothing impressive about Des Moines except that the rivers flood when the heavy rains come.

Each of you make strong points about perception, reality and job creation. I would agree Artist that we have more than we brag about. After being burned in the telecom industry a lot of people around here would just as soon forget about technology. Of course we can't do that.

But the real key is the placement of the capitol. Which is not here, which makes us second city status, at least for the time being. Apply for a job with the state or federal system and you find out the jobs are in OKC. It is their basic engine. Apply for a job with the city, county or local colleges here in Tulsa and you find out how provincial we really are. Friends, family, religion in that order.

I don't know the answer but something tells me it isn't just in the advertising of the city. It seems more basic than that. Not that a creative, concerted effort couldn't pay off though. Just not the main element.

[cannon_fodder]

Ames is indeed the home of Iowa State.  It is a nice college town akin to Stillwater + 5000 students.

and the river hasnt flooded Des Moines in over a decade.  They rebuilt the levies in the early 80's.

I left out:
7) Central location.  Des Moines is located at the junction of I-80 and I-35.  Traffic from and between Kansas City, Omaha, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Chicago and St. Louis go through Des Moines on the way to many of their destinations.  

Unfortunately that crossroads occurs a hundred miles down the Turnpike from Tulsa for our region.

---
But I agree, as I stated earlier,  7 of the top 10 employers in OKC are government jobs.  Tulsa has no option but to lose out on those.  

Of the top 10 employers 87,000 jobs are attributed to government.  Figuring in spin-off jobs and that number easily reaches 100,000 jobs  on the public dollar.  That's just insane.
http://www.first-commercial.com/OKCTop25Employers.htm

Des Moines would be similar Im sure.  That's an economic crutch that rarely has mass layoffs, cant just move to Houston, and has excellent benefits.