East End In Trouble?

[waterboy]

You don't really expect anyone to reaffirm or deny that do you? You can make a good case either way but its not the issue. Whether or not these same folks stand in the way of outsiders may be more germaine. I like the idea of money coming from outside our confines and increasing the size of the pie.

[tim huntzinger]

It used to be that folk were not so risk-adversive.  Now they demand 'partnerships' before they will 'risk' anything.  And then they want to be treated like heroes for coming up with ideas to spend our money.

[SoonerRiceGrad]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by SoonerRiceGrad

I can't say I'm surprised at this.

In the last 5 years alone how close has Tulsa been to a breakthrough? More grand plans come from Tulsa than any other city, I swear it. From a Frankfurt Square, to The Channels, to the East End, to MLS soccer, Garden Square, to KANBAR. I doubt Tulsa Landing will even happen. But hey, at least Jenks and Broken Arrow are coming to fruition. Pat yourself on the back for that.

Seriously. Even Kanbar's starting to look like a flake. Just another 5 years of going ons in the city of Tulsa. It seems like for the last 30 years Tulsa has always been on the verge of a breakthrough, the kinds of breakthroughs that other cities would once again start to envy Tulsa, but Tulsa can't ever seem to get past the threshold. I've completely lost hope for downtown Tulsa during the course of the last 4 months or so.

I'm not gonna be fooled again. From this point on, I am never again getting my hopes up. I'll just be giddy over Downtown OKC, there's plenty of glee to go around in that department of my heart.

[V]

As I have mentioned before,I am with ya on the "big plans from outside developers" thing. But I have not given up hope just yet lol.  No I am not going to get all excited about East End, Movie Studio, Heavenly Hospitality,or Kanbar type developments anymore, so I have decided that my focus and interests have moved to the local small developer.  Its people like Jamie J and Chris B (although many of you despise the latter, at least he is doing something lol) who are moving the city forward, and will continue to do so.

We shouldn't pin our hopes on large wonderous projects to push us forward.  

Its the small developments, small ideas, small groups, small changes, that when placed in the aggregate, will change our community into the great place to live that we want it to be.


It will also be up to the community and community leaders to make things happen along the river. But as we have seen before, these plans lose steam and never happen as well.  It will be up to us to really work hard this time and not let the "steam fizzle". There is a lot of work ahead and a number of situations where the latest plans for the river, or making of plans, can fall apart.  We need to keep pushing and actually do something this time. Thats purely up to us. If it falls off our "interest radar" and then our "leaders" radar, and nothing gets done.  We can have no one to blame but ourselves. Its up to us.


I don't think Tulsa should count on being the proverbial hare, we should strive to be the steady, unresting, tortoise.  

If we want something done, we are going to have to do it ourselves.

Who is that supposed to keep up with? Surely not OKC, 2,200 downtown units planned or u/c, and Omaha, 1,400 downtown units planned or u/c.

One of these days Tulsa needs to regain its former glory. Till then, it'll continue to be second-fiddle to similar sized cities.

[TheArtist]

So what is OKC doing that Tulsa is not?  I peek into one of the OKC chats and just about every couple weeks there is an announcement of a new development starting.  You should see the stuff thats been announced in just the last couple months. I used to poo poo their little canal area, but gosh all the stuff that keeps going in around their downtown area, well even if we did get the East End and full Kanbar action goin on we couldn't catch up with where they will be in a year or two.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

So what is OKC doing that Tulsa is not?  I peek into one of the OKC chats and just about every couple weeks there is an announcement of a new development starting.  You should see the stuff thats been announced in just the last couple months. I used to poo poo their little canal area, but gosh all the stuff that keeps going in around their downtown area, well even if we did get the East End and full Kanbar action goin on we couldn't catch up with where they will be in a year or two.

I don't know if this is the entire reason for the OKC Booming Downtown development that you refer to..... but I suspect it may have a great deal to do with it...

Their MAPS program targeted Downtown... V2025 is County wide...


August 17, 2004
was an historic day
in the City's history.

It brought the dedication of the Ronald J. Norick Downtown Library and the completion of the MAPS (Metropolitan Area Projects) program that began on December 14, 1993, when voters approved the MAPS sales tax.


It is believed Oklahoma City is the first city in the country to undertake a public facility enhancement project of this size.
The Projects:

   * The Ford Center
   * The AT&T Bricktown Ballpark
   * The Bricktown Canal
   * State Fairgrounds Improvements
   * The Oklahoma River
   * The Oklahoma Spirit Trolleys
   * Renovation of the Myriad into the Cox
   * Renovation of the Civic Center Music Hall
   * The Norick Downtown Library

How We Did It

MAPS was funded by a temporary one-cent sales tax approved by city voters in December 1993, and later extended an additional six months.

The tax expired on July 1, 1999. During the 66 months it was in effect, over $309 million was collected. In addition, the deposited tax revenue earned about $54 million in interest. That was used for MAPS construction, too.

Day to day operations are handled by the MAPS office, whose staff members are all City employees.

[YoungTulsan]

54 million in interest?  Is that because they collected the money and held onto it for a bit instead of passing the tax and immediately borrowing the expected income?

The Ford Center has done good for OKC.  The BOK Center looks like it will be nicer, but 2009 or whenever it is that it will open might be too late to have the same effect.  Getting an NBA team was suprising and a boon for OKC, but I would never expect that turn of events here in Tulsa.  I bet many of the new developments in OKC right now are a direct effect of getting an NBA team (and looking like they'll have a permanent one too)

[SoonerRiceGrad]

OKC is an ugly town of active people, as the saying goes. It doesn't matter, though.

Tulsa could be a beautiful town of active people, but it is NOT. Tulsa is a beautiful town of apathetic people, which gets beat every time by the ugly town of active people.

The only thing we do differently than Tulsa is dare to dream, and then, we execute. Somewhere between point a and point b Tulsa gets lost every time.

Here in OKC, we drive into our downtown every morning with a dream of turning these desolate, abandoned, crime-ridden streets into the Portland of the Plains. In the 90s we got sick and tired of seeing our city look like trash, that was so repulsive from the outside not even American Airlines would locate here. And so far, we're doing that, making our city so appealing from the outside that no one would refuse locating here. There isn't a city our size in America on a bigger upswing than OKC.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by SoonerRiceGrad

OKC is an ugly town of active people, as the saying goes. It doesn't matter, though.

Tulsa could be a beautiful town of active people, but it is NOT. Tulsa is a beautiful town of apathetic people, which gets beat every time by the ugly town of active people.

The only thing we do differently than Tulsa is dare to dream, and then, we execute. Somewhere between point a and point b Tulsa gets lost every time.

Here in OKC, we drive into our downtown every morning with a dream of turning these desolate, abandoned, crime-ridden streets into the Portland of the Plains. In the 90s we got sick and tired of seeing our city look like trash, that was so repulsive from the outside not even American Airlines would locate here. And so far, we're doing that, making our city so appealing from the outside that no one would refuse locating here. There isn't a city our size in America on a bigger upswing than OKC.

Hey, I said that! But it's a condensation of remarks others have made including yourself. OKC is geographically plain, flat, windy and kind of ugly. People seem more active there and yes, they execute their visions. I meant that as a compliment. They do things while Tulsans sit on their butts and complain about taxation, religion and roads. Tulsa gnashes its teeth about every little thing and in the end does almost nothing and does it late. But it is lovely here and we're building a nice arena. It is what it is.

[TheArtist]

That does seem to be a recurring underlying them that I have noticed.  aka Tulsans don't do anything.  Many complain about not having anything to go see or do, but they don't go see or do the things that they have.  How is it that that part of our "culture" is so different?  Even smaller cities can get better concert acts, better stores, etc. than Tulsa can.  Why, because they know people in Tulsa won't show up.

How can we change or improve our demographics?  Is this problem similar to the lack of "creative class" or college going people situation we have talked about in other threads?  Another result of the same underlying thing.

I do think we are getting better though. I hope lol.

The one good thing about the Channels group is that because they are out there still pushing, perhaps the new river plans will actually get situated this time so that development, of whatever kind, can actually happen for once.

[Rico]

Well at the risk of sounding redundant....

As long as these proposals are geared at the entire sprawling City.... You are going to have a Downtown area that remains stale... and frozen in it's efforts to become something other than what it is...

Look at how much money was spent in OKC by MAPS...

Then look at the price tag of every proposal in recent past for the Downtown Tulsa area...

That is one thing I agreed with Mr Thom about...

You have to have a "center"... a ground zero...

and from that it all will expand..  

Unlike Mr Thom I see Downtown and the investors that are there now as the "center"... The point from which the growth will expand.. Not the middle of the damn river..

We should take advantage of the resources we now have... Kanbar, Elliot Nelson, Schneider, etc., and a Mayor that seems eager to see new things happen..

I have heard many say "what is going on with these people...?" "They have not done that much yet."

Put together a coalition have meetings with them ... See if one penny, over say 5 years, would put more steam in the engine...

Do not continue to wait for others to make it happen..

[carltonplace]

In the TW today:

Progress stalled on East End development
By P.J. LASSEK World Staff Writer
2/8/2007

Legal complications have put plans for the 34-acre downtown site on hold.
The proposed East End downtown development hit shaky ground in December when The Nordam Group asked a judge to release it from a land purchase agreement with a Washington, D.C.-based developer.

"This is an ongoing, complicated issue that both parties hope to resolve with the result being a downtown project that is in the best interest of Tulsa," Mitch Adwon said Wednesday.

Adwon is president of Adwon Properties in Tulsa, which represents the private developers in the land acquisition.

Global Development Partners hopes to transform a 34-acre site on the east side of downtown into a regional destination point called the East End that would include a baseball stadium for the Tulsa Drillers surrounded by mixed-use developments.

Adwon would not comment further on the lawsuit or progress on the East End proposal.

Nordam filed a lawsuit Dec. 27 in Tulsa County District Court against Tulsa Partners I LLC, operating for Global Development Partners, stating that the defendants had failed to comply with the terms of a sales agreement.

Read More

[tim huntzinger]

This has probably been discussed elsewhere ad nauseum, but in terms of differences between OKC and Tulsa it would seem a major diff is the amount of guv'mint jobs that OKC has vs. Tulsa.

OKC has the Capitol, Tinker, Will Rogers, and two state universities within 45 minutes.  It also has two free interstates that lead to it and it is smack-dab in the middle of our state.

All that adds up to a much stronger built-in job and tax base that Tulsa does not share.

[ttown_jeff]

Thanks for the TW update.  As optimistic as their report is, there are a few facts they have left out about the lawsuit that make it difficult for me to believe that anything positive will come of this.  I hate to be negative about this, but face the facts:

1. Tulsa Partners I LLC have been served the petition in early January,
2. Their attorney has filed an appearance,
3. Tulsa Partners I LLC have not answered the petition, and
4. Nordam has filed a motion for summary judgment, which probably means that they believe there are  no material facts in dispute, and that the court can easily enforce the terms of the allegedly now breached purchase and sale agreement.

I'm fairly sure they will finally answer the petition, and the judge won't grant a motion for summary judgment.

But the gig is probably up on this one, I am sad to say.

I am not an attorney, this is just my opinion.

Jamie Pierson had it right in the Urban Tulsa article last week. We need to think small and local, if we are ever to get any positive development in our wonderful city. The big box development people could care less.

[cannon_fodder]

per Oklahoma City - they have nearly 100,000 jobs directly attributed to the government.  Between Federal jobs, the FAA, Tinker, the State, Universities, and various other things.  100,000 jobs that are steady, not likely to go away, come with built in raises and benefits, and pay above average.

Add to that 20-30,000 college students in the metro area. A central hub for the region and blah blah blah... and Oklahoma City has the advantage now that Tulsa once enjoyed from Oil.  The difference, of course, is Tulsan's are taxed to pay for the jobs in Oklahoma City.

[Renaissance]

Bummer of a story.  Sounds like the escrow payments accelerated to ensure the deal either went through or busted in a certain time period.  The Partners appear to have run out of financing.  Bummer for us.  At least Nordam will get some cash out of a judgment.

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