Annexing the fairgrounds into the city

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy


One guy put it best. The county does a good job on something and the city wants to come in and rake off the top.

If the city wants to annex the fairgrounds to take 3% and yet still expects the county to run the place it doesn't make sense does it?

Yeah, let's stop collecting City Sales Tax down at Woodland Hills Mall, too. The City really does expect those businesses to do all their own work, then just comes in an takes 3% of everything.

Face it, the Fairgrounds is nothing but another 'mall', run for profit/revenue, by its' 'owners' (the Fairgrounds Trust Authority).

It makes a lot of sense to me. Besides, City of Tulsa builds and maintains the surrounding infrastructure which provides access to the Fairgrounds, utilities and the balance of benefits of simple location.

The fact is, the 'discount' they have been providing gives them unfair advantage over real local businesses who may be competing for the same customers in many cases.

It doesn't cost the County anything, it's in addition to the taxes the County and State already charge.

The sole argument that it makes it harder for them to attact events may be, in fact, true. They would then have to compete on a level playing field.

But, most of their offerings are sole source type events in the first place. (Fair, Bell's, Big Splash, et al) So, no loss.

They are, after all, wholly within the City. I don't think anyone can contest that.

[Double A]

Shadows is off his meds. The city is well within it's rights to annex the fairgrounds. It seems to me like the county is the one constantly trying to overstep it's authority(remember when they tried to use eminent domain against the city). My favorite part of the meeting was when County officials admitted they had no idea how much revenue is generated from the fairgrounds, talk about great stewardship of taxpayer dollars! Another highlight from the meeting was when Fred Perry admitted he's basically clueless about how County government functions. What was the deal with Randi Miller acting like she didn't understand what a special event application is? She must have approved hundreds of these during her tenure on the Council. Did she not understand what she was voting on back then? What else should we expect from the folks that thought privatizing the jail and a privately owned toll bridge in South Tulsa were great ideas?

BTW, while the city of Tulsa struggled to make it through arguably one of the most(if not the most) difficult economic downturns and extreme revenue shortfalls it has ever faced due to the vulnerable nature of unpredictable sales tax streams the city is forced to rely on(thanks in no small part to the County), the County was busy devising new sales taxes to assess on top of the property taxes they collect, further complicating the cities ability to generate revenue to keep the city running. When former Mayors(with the support of the Council) approached the County about helping the city secure a more stable funding source, possibly a 3 mil property tax assessment that formerly was collected by the city that for some  reason(the logic of which defies me) was turned over to the County, they were basically ridiculed, patted on the head, and pushed back out the door.

The Council gave the County way more respect than they have received from the County by not going ahead with the annexation at the meeting. It was a very gracious thing for the Council to do, because it was respect the County did not deserve.

Take the POLL

[waterboy]

wow. So lets just kick the county out.  Do you think they have any purpose within the confines of the city? Other than serving court papers?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote:Originally posted by waterboy


One guy put it best. The county does a good job on something and the city wants to come in and rake off the top.

If the city wants to annex the fairgrounds to take 3% and yet still expects the county to run the place it doesn't make sense does it?

Yeah, let's stop collecting City Sales Tax down at Woodland Hills Mall, too. The City really does expect those businesses to do all their own work, then just comes in an takes 3% of everything.

Not a fair comparison. Sarcastic, but not comparable.

I don't care whether the city annexes the fairgrounds, the courthouse, or whatever but to not understand what that will imply as far as services provided is naive. If you guys think the city can provide the same services at the same level and still pocket some money then take it all over.

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

wow. So lets just kick the county out.  Do you think they have any purpose within the confines of the city? Other than serving court papers?

Not many purposes.  And since they do such a swell job making money off public facilites why not give the BOK Center to the County?

I am all about clarifying boundaries, and as I was looking at my map of City/County there are a lot of areas that need to be clarified.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

wow. So lets just kick the county out.  Do you think they have any purpose within the confines of the city? Other than serving court papers?

Not many purposes.  And since they do such a swell job making money off public facilites why not give the BOK Center to the County?

I am all about clarifying boundaries, and as I was looking at my map of City/County there are a lot of areas that need to be clarified.

Maybe you could clarify that sovereignty issue between the state and the tribes while you're at it. Its all so simple really.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy


I don't care whether the city annexes the fairgrounds, the courthouse, or whatever but to not understand what that will imply as far as services provided is naive. If you guys think the city can provide the same services at the same level and still pocket some money then take it all over.

Annexation doesn't change ownership, only jurisdiction. The county would still own and operate the fairgrounds, just like they own and operate LaFortune Park, which, like the fairgrounds, used to be an unincorporated enclave, but is now within the city limits. Annexation would simply bring the fairgrounds under the jurisdiction of Tulsa's ordinances.

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Maybe you could clarify that sovereignty issue between the state and the tribes while you're at it. Its all so simple really.

IMO I think that the tribes - inasmuch as their land was stolen from them - should have free reign to do anything they like.  But that's just me.

What of Fred Perry's observation of the differences in number of events per year between OKC and Tulsa?(KOTV)

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by waterboy


I don't care whether the city annexes the fairgrounds, the courthouse, or whatever but to not understand what that will imply as far as services provided is naive. If you guys think the city can provide the same services at the same level and still pocket some money then take it all over.

Annexation doesn't change ownership, only jurisdiction. The county would still own and operate the fairgrounds, just like they own and operate LaFortune Park, which, like the fairgrounds, used to be an unincorporated enclave, but is now within the city limits. Annexation would simply bring the fairgrounds under the jurisdiction of Tulsa's ordinances.

My quote didn't refer to ownership, which as you say, is quite different than jurisdiction. The city wants/needs more money and sees this as a potential source. The article pointed out that the city may not provide the same level of services that the county does (like fair security) but could charge the county for those services if they feel it necessary. I hope the state doesn't do this during money shortages. We could end up paying a special assessment for being represented at the state house!

The fairgrounds is an example of govt. working fairly well. If it wasn't for the money would anyone be suggesting this?  This is politics for sure and should be handled gingerly lest war ensue. I was not impressed with either side last nite but the city looked like a hungry dog talking to dinner.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Maybe you could clarify that sovereignty issue between the state and the tribes while you're at it. Its all so simple really.

IMO I think that the tribes - inasmuch as their land was stolen from them - should have free reign to do anything they like.  But that's just me.

What of Fred Perry's observation of the differences in number of events per year between OKC and Tulsa?(KOTV)

Wow.  I'm a card carrying member of the Cherokee Tribe and I thank you for your offer.  I want your house.  Leave the keys in the mailbox, I'll be by to pick them up later...

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Maybe you could clarify that sovereignty issue between the state and the tribes while you're at it. Its all so simple really.

IMO I think that the tribes - inasmuch as their land was stolen from them - should have free reign to do anything they like.  But that's just me.

What of Fred Perry's observation of the differences in number of events per year between OKC and Tulsa?(KOTV)

Looks like we need to send you to the Middle East.

Fred Perry needs to go to toastmasters. There is some logic though in what he pointed out. Not much, but some. We have more events at our facilities than they do at theirs even though their fairgrounds is more "capacious" (thanks for that legalism mr Eagleton). Does that mean ours is better run? That there are fewer buildings capable of handling ChiliBowl's there? I don't know and neither do any of these folks that's why there needs to be much more discussion and less drooling.

[Wrinkle]

The only real opposition to this is coming from the County itself.

DoubleA makes a lot of good points with regard to the County's disposition relative to the City.

The County wants to be the dominate economic engine of the region, while the City IS the dominate economic engine.

Besides, if annexed, County officials would have to open up their books for City auditors, impliment record keeping protocols for all the funtions they now keep track of in thier pants pockets, and the TRUE revenue picture of all the functions would be publically available.

Race Track, Sports Bar, Hotel, Bell's or it's new evolution, Big Splash, IPE, Stables and Horse Arena, Fair, Car Shows, Chili Bowl, Boat Shows, Gun Shows, et al.

Accounting is the issue here.

That's something County officials never have done and are definitely not so inclined to start.

I predict the City revenue from sales tax will far exceed current estimations, if all sales are taxed. There's been some discussion of aspects not being taxed. Read somewhere gate tickets and items sold at IPE would be excluded, for some reason. Everything should be taxed.

Event promoters are responsible for security at their own events. If County wants to contract for special events help during the Fair, fine.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

The only real opposition to this is coming from the County itself.

DoubleA makes a lot of good points with regard to the County's disposition relative to the City.

The County wants to be the dominate economic engine of the region, while the City IS the dominate economic engine.

Besides, if annexed, County officials would have to open up their books for City auditors, impliment record keeping protocols for all the funtions they now keep track of in thier pants pockets, and the TRUE revenue picture of all the functions would be publically available.

Race Track, Sports Bar, Hotel, Bell's or it's new evolution, Big Splash, IPE, Stables and Horse Arena, Fair, Car Shows, Chili Bowl, Boat Shows, Gun Shows, et al.

Accounting is the issue here.

That's something County officials never have done and are definitely not so inclined to start.

I predict the City revenue from sales tax will far exceed current estimations, if all sales are taxed. There's been some discussion of aspects not being taxed. Read somewhere gate tickets and items sold at IPE would be excluded, for some reason. Everything should be taxed.

Event promoters are responsible for security at their own events. If County wants to contract for special events help during the Fair, fine.

I think you've pretty much exposed yourself as an insider here. You should fess up and disclose your interest. No one knows that much unless they are retired and politics is a hobby or they work for one of the entities involved and harbor a grudge. Which is it?

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

The only real opposition to this is coming from the County itself.

DoubleA makes a lot of good points with regard to the County's disposition relative to the City.

The County wants to be the dominate economic engine of the region, while the City IS the dominate economic engine.

Besides, if annexed, County officials would have to open up their books for City auditors, impliment record keeping protocols for all the funtions they now keep track of in thier pants pockets, and the TRUE revenue picture of all the functions would be publically available.

Race Track, Sports Bar, Hotel, Bell's or it's new evolution, Big Splash, IPE, Stables and Horse Arena, Fair, Car Shows, Chili Bowl, Boat Shows, Gun Shows, et al.

Accounting is the issue here.

That's something County officials never have done and are definitely not so inclined to start.

I predict the City revenue from sales tax will far exceed current estimations, if all sales are taxed. There's been some discussion of aspects not being taxed. Read somewhere gate tickets and items sold at IPE would be excluded, for some reason. Everything should be taxed.

Event promoters are responsible for security at their own events. If County wants to contract for special events help during the Fair, fine.

I think you've pretty much exposed yourself as an insider here. You should fess up and disclose your interest. No one knows that much unless they are retired and politics is a hobby or they work for one of the entities involved and harbor a grudge. Which is it?

I guess I could consider that a compliment of some sort since I have no interest other than as a resident of Tulsa, the City.

Just what info did I provide which could be considered 'inside' anyway? Even reading the TW would provide that much.

Add a bit of logic and it just happens.

The Fair proclaims a successful event when 1,000,000 people come through the gates. At $7/ticket, 3% adds up to $210,000. That's approaching the LOW end of current revenue estimates.

That doesn't count anything purchased inside.
And, doesn't include any of the other specticals of the asset such as horse racing, baseball, boat shows, etc.

So, I see estimates being way low.

See, it's not really magic, or insider info.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

The only real opposition to this is coming from the County itself.

DoubleA makes a lot of good points with regard to the County's disposition relative to the City.

The County wants to be the dominate economic engine of the region, while the City IS the dominate economic engine.

Besides, if annexed, County officials would have to open up their books for City auditors, impliment record keeping protocols for all the funtions they now keep track of in thier pants pockets, and the TRUE revenue picture of all the functions would be publically available.

Race Track, Sports Bar, Hotel, Bell's or it's new evolution, Big Splash, IPE, Stables and Horse Arena, Fair, Car Shows, Chili Bowl, Boat Shows, Gun Shows, et al.

Accounting is the issue here.

That's something County officials never have done and are definitely not so inclined to start.

I predict the City revenue from sales tax will far exceed current estimations, if all sales are taxed. There's been some discussion of aspects not being taxed. Read somewhere gate tickets and items sold at IPE would be excluded, for some reason. Everything should be taxed.

Event promoters are responsible for security at their own events. If County wants to contract for special events help during the Fair, fine.

I think you've pretty much exposed yourself as an insider here. You should fess up and disclose your interest. No one knows that much unless they are retired and politics is a hobby or they work for one of the entities involved and harbor a grudge. Which is it?

I guess I could consider that a compliment of some sort since I have no interest other than as a resident of Tulsa, the City.

Just what info did I provide which could be considered 'inside' anyway? Even reading the TW would provide that much.

Add a bit of logic and it just happens.

The Fair proclaims a successful event when 1,000,000 people come through the gates. At $7/ticket, 3% adds up to $210,000. That's approaching the LOW end of current revenue estimates.

That doesn't count anything purchased inside.
And, doesn't include any of the other specticals of the asset such as horse racing, baseball, boat shows, etc.

So, I see estimates being way low.

See, it's not really magic, or insider info.

Its about the money Wrinkle. I ask the question again. Would this be happening during good economic conditions? If the county totally mismanaged the fairgrounds would the city even be looking at them? No. Its not about serving the best interests of the city to exploit success with an additional tax. If anything their success points to a scary proposition. That lower taxes may boost sales activity! Uh-Oh! Don't tell MTTA that lower prices spur growth! This could be big!

Perhaps charging additional sales tax during the fair when there is a natural flow of outside money into the fairgrounds regardless of the cost would be possible. It is naive to think that raising the tax 3% is not going to effect sales. Shame on Roscoe and Henderson for not realizing what most folks take for granted. Its cheaper to buy a washer/dryer at the home show and people are inclined to consider that.

I really hate it when people espouse these "simple" solutions. Nothing is simple.