Spanking Laws

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:I think the fact there is a debate on this issue highlights that people do not have the same definitions of the difference between abuse and discipline.

I don't believe there is debate about the issue.  I think there are kooks who want all corporal punishment banned, that's what started the thread.  How would you even write such a law?

quote:
I have no idea how such a policy would be enforced, but I'm saying I feel there is a thin line.

As with most everything in life, but we can't legislate everything, especially in areas where most people with a smidge of common sense can make the right call on their own.

quote:
I used to work in a supermarket as a student and there you would see parents disciplining there kids. You could tell that a lot of people there felt they were going too far. Maybe the simplest way of dealing with such a complex matter is an outright ban to rid the grey area. I don't feel I'm disagreeing with you iplaw.

If you're asking for a complete ban...we couldn't be more polar opposite.

I said maybe the simplist way is. I was not calling for a ban, but a debate. A ban is always the simplist way around an issue and is always an option.

I have no idea what a law would look like as I'm  not a legislator, just someone with an opinion.

I think while most people can make the right call, the people who don't can really damage children. I really don't trust everyones common sense when it comes to such an important issue.

I'm agreeing with you on the complexities of the issue both morally and trying to frame it legally.

[iplaw]

quote:
I think while most people can make the right call, the people who don't can really damage children. I really don't trust everyones common sense when it comes to such an important issue.

Isn't this case with every crime on the books?  We already have laws to deal with those who take things too far, even government agencies like DHS who's sole reason for existing is to deal with these issues.  Another law won't keep unstable people from beating kids, it would just serve to muddy the waters futher for those who are using the practice in a legal manner.

[tim huntzinger]

Enforcement would be by sight, like a seat belt violation.  The punishment would not be horrific, probably just a ticket.  The benefits are that we will send a clear signal that hitting toddlers is inappropriate.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:
I think while most people can make the right call, the people who don't can really damage children. I really don't trust everyones common sense when it comes to such an important issue.

Isn't this case with every crime on the books?  We already have laws to deal with those who take things too far, even government agencies like DHS who's sole reason for existing is to deal with these issues.  Another law won't keep unstable people from beating kids, it would just serve to muddy the waters futher for those who are using the practice in a legal manner.

That sounds like a good solution as long as the existing laws provide enough coverage and highlight the additional seriousness of beating children compared to the man on the street.

It would only be worth writing new laws if the old ones were ineffective in stopping over zealous corporal punishment.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

Enforcement would be by sight, like a seat belt violation.  The punishment would not be horrific, probably just a ticket.  The benefits are that we will send a clear signal that hitting toddlers is inappropriate.

Move to Norway.

[mdunn]

I personally have never spanked a child,and dont believe in spanking them under 3,but after that I got my rear tanned if I misbehaved as well as most kids,its not abuse to smack thier rears a few times,face anywhere else..yes.
I hate that spoil the child spare the rod mentality!

[iplaw]

quote:
That sounds like a good solution as long as the existing laws provide enough coverage and highlight the additional seriousness of beating children compared to the man on the street.

Again, do you think laws keep people like that (those that can't differentiate the two) from beating kids?  Standard child abuse laws are strict and have heavy penalties.  Lastly, I don't think anyone here has condoned beating anyone...

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:
That sounds like a good solution as long as the existing laws provide enough coverage and highlight the additional seriousness of beating children compared to the man on the street.

Again, do you think laws keep people like that (those that can't differentiate the two) from beating kids?  Standard child abuse laws are strict and have heavy penalties.  Lastly, I don't think anyone here has condoned beating anyone...

Just retroactive beatings for the forum trolls...

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Again, do you think laws keep people like that (those that can't differentiate the two) from beating kids?  Standard child abuse laws are strict and have heavy penalties.  Lastly, I don't think anyone here has condoned beating anyone...

Again, hitting a child is beating them.  The severity of the beating is the gray area.

Hmmmmm.... there was a girl in high school from Norway that was sweet on me (Wenche!) but I do not think I will move there.  The two countries are not fungible.

We need to send a clear message to at-risk parents (read: all of us) that hitting little kids is unnecessary.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

Enforcement would be by sight, like a seat belt violation.  The punishment would not be horrific, probably just a ticket.  The benefits are that we will send a clear signal that hitting toddlers is inappropriate.

Move to Norway.

Why? Do they have laws against hitting children?

That's what it is anyway. Hitting. Or in your terms, assault and battery. We make an exception to the law. We won't allow such hitting on adults, but kids? Wail away and be good parents! The difference in the Middle East is they make an exception to allow hitting women too. We're too sophisticated for that. Women might buy a gun and shoot us so we include them as adults.

People make a decision early on about hitting their children. They either accept it as good general parenting if not used to excess (after all your parents might be suspect if you didn't believe that) or they remember how it felt and that it usually had more to do with frustration than discipline and refuse to carry on the tradition. Kind of like one's politics I guess.

[guido911]

IP:  "...there are kooks who want all corporal punishment banned..."

Since I oppose corporal punishment, I suppose I am a kook too.

As for the language of a potential law banning that activity, I think the first step would be to remove the term "switching" from Oklahoma's criminal statute. Beating someone with tree limbs is criminal and I do not care who is doing it.

[iplaw]

quote:
Why? Do they have laws against hitting children?

No.  They have laws against corporal punishment.

quote:
That's what it is anyway. Hitting. Or in your terms, assault and battery. We make an exception to the law. We won't allow such hitting on adults, but kids?

Yes.

quote:
Wail away and be good parents! The difference in the Middle East is they make an exception to allow hitting women too. We're too sophisticated for that.

Non-sequitor.  No one is saying we should be able to beat children...Again, I'm surprised that anyone with more than a 3rd grade education can't see the difference between behavior corrective punishment and abuse...

quote:
People make a decision early on about hitting their children. They either accept it as good general parenting if not used to excess (after all your parents might be suspect if you didn't believe that) or they remember how it felt and that it usually had more to do with frustration than discipline and refuse to carry on the tradition. Kind of like one's politics I guess.

Well, politics have nothing to do with it, other than the idea that government has no business telling me how to raise my children.

Often I find the worst behaved children to be those from homes where spanking is a taboo.  I have a cousin who's husband was afraid to spank their children...and counter to your position, I can't stand to be in the same room with their children.  The mighty specter of TIME OUT is the only deterrent to poor behavior.

My wife teaches ED/LD children and almost, down to a child, she is able to point out the ones with parents who don't discipline their children, and most often the ones who don't allow the school to employ corporal punishment.

What I love to see are those parents who THINK their children are angels, but in reality they are deluded and their kids are monsters...

Raise your children however you see if, but stay the hell out of my house please.

Guido:

Yes, on this issue, you're a kook if you believe that the government has a right to tell me I can't discipline my child by spanking them.  Do what you want in your own home, but stay out of my business.

[iplaw]

On a side note, I'd like to ask another question.  The SCOTUS has ruled that corporal punishment is an acceptable form of discipline, period.  They apparently are intelligent enough to see the difference between punishment and abuse.  They have also upheld, for almost the same amount of time, a woman's right to choose, period.

Why aren't people (especially liberals like you waterboy) here speaking with the same fervor towards ensuring that our right to spank our children is upheld just like our right to choose?  Why the double standard?

If you think spanking is repulsive...imagine what abortion seems like to a person who thinks it's murder.

[waterboy]

IP you're ridiculous. If that s$*t works for you and yours have at it. I marvel at your ability to destroy line by line others arguments but seldom apply the same sharp knife to your own remarks.

I saw in your post anecdotal remarks (your wife, your cousins, homes without spanking having poor behaved children). I saw inconsistencies (hitting vs. corporal punishment; behavior corrective punishment...Clinton could have used your spin to describe blow job). And I saw educated naivete (non-sequitor: politics not involved) but by god, keep the gub'mnt out of my home. Yeah, where have I heard that. Of course your group doesn't mind the idea of govt. allowing corporal punishment (hitting) in schools. Thats not political.

I spent a couple hours yesterday with a school psychologist friend of mine with direct experience in testing and counseling in South Tulsa schools. Surprisingly she had very little to say that you would agree with. She sees the result of the extremes in child disciplin from laissez faire to "smackem" and they are both similar. She did make the same remark your wife did about judging the kids at an early age as to their possible home environments. Common practice I suppose but just as helpful as horoscopes or psychics.

We discussed the many different methods we had employed, successfully, in correcting our kids (without hitting). Time out was one. What we all agreed on was that the reason we knew these other methods (besides hitting) was through education. Developmental pscyh classes, reading different sources from Piaget to Dobson and sharing with other parents. All prospective parents should receive such education.

Good luck with your plan for raising kids. You only get one chance and you have to learn fast. It ain't as easy as carving up others plans.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

On a side note, I'd like to ask another question.  The SCOTUS has ruled that corporal punishment is an acceptable form of discipline, period.  They apparently are intelligent enough to see the difference between punishment and abuse.  They have also upheld, for almost the same amount of time, a woman's right to choose, period.

Why aren't people (especially liberals like you waterboy) here speaking with the same fervor towards ensuring that our right to spank our children is upheld just like our right to choose?  Why the double standard?

If you think spanking is repulsive...imagine what abortion seems like to a person who thinks it's murder.

Yeah, everything eventually comes back to abortion. Sorry, not biting.

As far as the Supreme Court, it isn't a group of saintly, infallible, divinely inspired leaders of men. They are politically chosen, usually focused more on law than humanity and struggle to reconcile those viewpoints. They upheld separate but equal too as  well as protection for baseball from the anti-trust. When the public has as much education as they do, child abuse will subside.