College for Downtown Tulsa.

[TheArtist]

There have been many threads on here where the notion has been batted around about having a full-fledged college downtown would be one of the best things to not only give downtown a boost but would make Tulsa a far more attractive city.

However I can't recall hearing any real discussion about such a thing from our officials. Or from Tulsa Now.  

I have several questions that I would like to have answers to if anyone knows.

1.  How do state funded colleges get funds allocated to them?

2.  Who decides and how could they be persuaded to put more money into Tulsas OSU Downtown?

3.  Who in our city is supposed to be doing this persuading and making sure we get our fare share?

4.  If we eventually plan a vote for something for the river, wouldn't that be a great time to see if voters think expanding our college downtown would be a good idea as well?

5.  Would we be allowed by the regents to expand OSU Tulsa through our own initiative or would we have to get permission?


6.  Who can I, as a citizen, express my concerns too?  To whom would I and others, like people in Tulsa Now, write in the hopes of getting some movement?


I bet most would agree that the idea of having a college downtown would be a great benefit in so many ways.  Even the people working on the MAPS 3 for OKC realize the idea would be a good one for their downtown area. Their problem is that they already have a large college just 30 minutes away.

Whoever planned where the colleges in this state should be, and then those after them that kept funding them in the same places and not seeing the writing on the wall that they needed to start funding them within the largest cities, needs to be shot.

The fact that people in OKC can even consider building a college that would attract 30,000 to 50,000 students near their downtown, for they realize the benefits that such an idea could bring, makes you wonder why Tulsa isn't working on it with urgency.

http://okcbusiness.com/industry_article.asp?cID=D&aID=88797879.129172.574288.7493669.9712408.495&aID2=44167

http://okc.gov/planning/coretoshore/visuals/feb_concept_ne.jpg


Think about it, lets say that OKC decides to do a targeted college like an arts college. (which has been bantered around in OKC) How many arts colleges can we really have in this state?  If they got one first wouldn't it look silly for us to then say, Oh we should try to build one too. Its not that reasonable to try and have two major arts colleges, or other such targeted colleges, in this state.  We, the ones without a large college right next door, should be the ones making the next big move via colleges in this state whether targeted or not. Not waiting for OKC to figure out what the best type of new college would be and then leave us trying to copy and compete, not only for students but for those generous donors, or find the next best idea.  

[SoonerRiceGrad]

We are not interested in building an arts college. The idea was completely stupid. Oklahoma City University is already the finest university in the nation for dance, opera, music, acting, and many other fine arts. (These are programs that complement the Meinders School of Business and the law school at OCU that are also tops.)

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by SoonerRiceGrad

We are not interested in building an arts college. The idea was completely stupid. Oklahoma City University is already the finest university in the nation for dance, opera, music, acting, and many other fine arts. (These are programs that complement the Meinders School of Business and the law school at OCU that are also tops.)

The idea for an arts college was just an example.  But were you saying that the idea for an arts college was completely stupid?  Or the idea for a college near downtown OKC is stupid?  And why do you think so?

I think it would be stretching things waay to far to have another college so close to OU and OCU already, but if the reasons and benefits of having a college near downtown were seen to be important enough to bring up even when everyone knows that OU and OCU are so close, wouldn't it thus be all the more valid and important for Tulsa?  Yet even in our circumstance it doesn't appear that anyone is pushing to expand OSU Tulsa to the extent of OKC's proposal.

Its as if here again we are going to let things, aka OSU Tulsa, "evolve naturally".  Whenever someone, somewhere gives us a bit of some money to do something, well a little more will get done. But don't seem to find it important enough to taking any active steps to really get things moving.

I am just kind of frustrated that we haven't proposed anything like that.  WE DON'T have the colleges like they do, yet THEY were the ones who came up with that proposal?  It seems backwards.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by SoonerRiceGrad

Oklahoma City University is already the finest university in the nation for dance, opera, music, acting, and many other fine arts.

OCU alum who studied opera and sang leading roles there blushes... [:I]

That said, the last time I checked, OCU had ONE-TENTH the endowment of TU.  But, then again,  OCU has never offered a petroleum engineering department... [:O]  

In my opinion, Tulsa has always had trickle down arts.  Tulsa Ballet, Tulsa Opera and the old Tulsa Philharmonic have all had more profound effects on TU and ORU than the other way around.  Back in the day, I was a studio artist for Tulsa Opera WHILE still studying at OCU.  At the time, the Tulsa Opera Studio program was done from OCU, not TU or ORU.

Sure, TU would have a few good students of Laven Sowell (Tulsa Opera's chorusmaster for years and years) and ORU put out a handful of really good people who went onward and upward... but the departments lacked resources.

And OCU isn't losing millions upon millions of dollars per year to play Div I football and basketball, although the pressure seems to be on from OKC Mayor Mick's office to have OCU return to NCAA Div I basketball...

And ORU?  Well, I once saw a production of Mozart's Magic Flute where Sarastro's famous bass aria "O Isis und Osiris" was translated into English as "O father, son & holy spirit."  D'oh.

Oral Roberts decided to fund and build his City of Faith... TU decided to prop up its Div I football program...  http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2006-11-27-.500-bowl-teams_x.htm

quote:Included among bowl-eligible teams are the four schools with the smallest enrollments in Division I-A — Wake Forest (10-2), Tulsa (8-4), Rice (7-5) and Navy (8-3 with a game left).

I've heard TU's traditionally offered a strong theatre dept but their music school is painfully small and just doesn't attract the talent it should.  Rice seems to be TU's role model in many respects but Rice has a strong music dept... so does Univ of Houston... while we're at it, so does North Texas State Univ in Denton...  

OCU took a strong vocal music department and over the years transformed itself, adding all sorts of stuff since I went to school there... including this:

http://www.okcu.edu/petree/humanities/art/expansion.html

There's a reasonable artists area down the street from OCU at "The Paseo"... an area that does very well without having to resort to a TIF district, thank you very much... http://www.okclive.com/paseo/

This year's Miss Oklahoma/Miss America was not from OCU as is usual.... but this time she's a musical theater major at Univ of Central Oklahoma in Edmond... again, OCU's music school contributed to the community as a whole when a couple of its faculty as well as some graduates moved over to UCO's music department and basically built the department from scratch in the 80's...

Wish a good arts program could happen at OSU-Tulsa, but how?  What's even more odd is the case of Tulsa Community College; how does a COMMUNITY COLLEGE have a modern performing arts center and its own symphony orchestra.... unless the college becomes a 4-year school, it makes ZERO sense and is a complete waste of resources... then again, when Stratton Taylor was wielding power in the state legislature, Rogers State became a four year college... guess Claremore doesn't want the competition of a traditional 4 yr state school in Tulsa... neither does NSU...

So Tulsa gets shortchanged.

I'd be happy if OSU-Tulsa downtown becomes as strong as Univ of Central Oklahoma.... or contributes to its downtown like IUPUI in Indianapolis...

Something is better than nothing... start there and grow...

[rwarn17588]

OSU-Tulsa has made it clear it's going to become a full-bore four-year institution in a few years (and may have some such programs already, if I'm not mistaken). I'm sure it has other expansion plans, too.

So what am I missing here? Are OSU-Tulsa's efforts not good enough / fast enough? Is it not close enough to downtown for you?

(I'm not being a smart*ss; I'm genuinely wondering.)

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

OSU-Tulsa has made it clear it's going to become a full-bore four-year institution in a few years (and may have some such programs already, if I'm not mistaken). I'm sure it has other expansion plans, too.

So what am I missing here? Are OSU-Tulsa's efforts not good enough / fast enough? Is it not close enough to downtown for you?

(I'm not being a smart*ss; I'm genuinely wondering.)

I consider OSU Tulsa to be downtown.

But, whenever I see how the state budgets are divided up each year, well, I just don't see how OSU Tulsa is going to become the college I think we need in "a few years" or even a few decades.  I also see that the colleges that aren't in Tulsa are still getting the lions share of budget increases, by far. We still get table scraps. My personal opinion is that the state has 50 years of making up to do, we should be getting more than the others at this point, or at least an equal share of new funds, not 10% or less.  Of course I know that is unrealistic.  But its still frustrating to look at what OU and OSU are building and how they are growing right now, then look at what OSU Tulsa is building and how its growing right now, and wonder if the state and OSU is serious about OSU Tulsa.

Plus this is in an environment where we have been asked by a local group to consider 600mill dollar development proposal to make Tulsa competitive. ((Wouldnt far less for a university downtown be wiser?)) Its an environment where we "Tulsa Now" and others are pushing to find ways to get Tulsa and its downtown to thrive again. ((Wouldn't  building a great university right downtown be a great thing for it, and all of Tulsa, yet where is the discussion and efffort there?))  Its an environment where I read in the papers all the time where cities are expanding their universities  with hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars worth of improvements and growth so that they can create jobs and remain competitive.  (( Don't we want that? Or are we happy with 10 mill here 30 mill there, every few years or decade?)) Its an environment where the city of OKC throws out the idea for funding a large university near its downtown stating the benefits that having one would have as a reason why the city should consider it, even though, they already have a major university so close  (( Yet  apparently Tulsa doesn't think its worth pushing for? ))

No, I don't think we are trying hard enough or that the college is being seen as an important part of that equation.  There should be far more focus, discussion, and yes urgency, if it were.

I see more talk about lighting, where sidewalks should go, arguments about parks, etc. etc. than discussion about something I consider far more important, our downtown college.

[swake]

I think OSU is doing well downtown but is hampered by state rules and changing those rules is being blocked by Oklahoma City politicians and TCC. OSU (and all other public colleges in Tulsa county) are prohibited from offering first and second year classes and cannot offer classes that overlap with Langston-Tulsa. These rules are in place to protect Langston and TCC (and I think also to dampen any competitive advantage Tulsa might gain vs OKC). Tulsa needs to tell TCC to shut up (as the city has paid for most of the infrastructure of TCC) and fight the rules in the state legislature. So I would say call or write your State Senator and Representative as I have already done. These rules were nearly changed in the last legislative session but were successfully fought by Oklahoma City rep Opio Toure.

Beyond these rules I would say that OSU is really doing a good job on the school and the city and state are doing well in support of OSU Tulsa. The Advanced Research facility that is nearing completion is being built with a combination of vision 2025 money, state money and a large gift. OSU is working now a study for housing on the campus and they have announced plans for a new student union on campus in the next couple of years. The state also has leased the former Tulsa Regional Medical Center for 50 years for OSU's medical school and the downtown hospital has been renamed The OSU Medical Center and the state is also pumping $40 million into infrastructure improvement at the hospital.

In fact, I cannot disagree more with the idea that higher education, other than the rules about who can offer what, is not being supported by the city and finally by the state. Five years ago Tulsa had a UCAT which was a dizzying maze of weak offerings of upper level classes that usually ended in a degree of dubious worth from Langston University.  The Tulsa area now has a wealth of options just waiting to have their hands untied from stupid rules.

UCAT is now a much larger campus than when it was UCAT and is now known as OSU-Tulsa (with a ever shrinking portion devoted to Langston who is still supposed to be moving) Rogers State University (formerly a junior college), NSU has built a big new campus in Broken Arrow (and not in Tulsa county), OU-Tulsa was given a huge gift on Yale and is doing great things there and TCC continues to build on as well. TCC for example is about to start construction on a large new downtown building funded by the state.

The goal for all these colleges has to be the removal of the rules about who can offer what. Langston has proven it has no commitment to Tulsa by not even bothering to use the funds passed in 2025 to build a new campus. Time for them to go and to let these college compete with each other for students.

[sgrizzle]

OSU's plans:
http://www.osu-tulsa.okstate.edu/future/vision.asp

[cannon_fodder]

Small text kinda sorta off topic...

Somehow this became a comparison to Oklahoma City University, how, Im not sure... but whatever:

First, sorry to say but while OCU might have good fine arts programs they are not "tops,"  Juilliard  , Berkley, UCLA... those programs rate as tops.  Likewise, for business its  Wharton, Harvard, U of Chicago, Yale.  Law is the same story.  While I am sure OCU is a fine institution and I do not place full stock in national rankings, to say it is "tops" is certainly a stretch.

Also... per athletics.  It is my belief that a strong athletic department serves a university as well as strong academics. Perhaps this should not be the case, but without the athletics few people outside the region know of schools except for a select few.  No one would know what Notre Dame was (which, incidentally, does not achieve as highly academically as one might imagine).  Nor would many people recognize Auburn, Ganzaga, Syracuse, Northwestern, Baylor, or the like.  While two of those are huge schools, there would still be no reason for people outside the region to really know them.  Certainly true for Ganzaga... or the like of TU.

Furthermore, TULSA'S ATHLETICS ARE SELF FUNDING.  As I often do, I will post to an actual source instead of just randomly stating what I think as a fact:
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetail.asp?CRITERIA=3

While it is true that the expenses probably dont include capital improvement (Im not sure on that, but Im guessing not), Tulsa is not spending millions a year on D-I athletics.  And EVEN IF THEY WERE, the exposure Tulsa gets from appearing in a bowl game, winning the NIT, or going to the elite 8 is more exposure than could be bought with tens of millions of dollars.  At least people have HEARD of the school.  Not to mention it gives something for Students, Alumni and family to participate in and be part of their school.

Coming from out of state I knew of Tulsa for its basketball prowess - but had never heard of OCU.  Again, I have heard nothing bad about the academics at OCU, just that outside of this reason there is no reason for anyone would have heard of it.

Back on topic...

All indications are that OSU Tulsa is expanding to a true four year institution.  There are currently 2,600 full time students at OSU Tulsa.    Currently the program is a bit piece meal, with trips to OSU-Stillwater needed to complete many degrees.  When that gets taken care of (which is in progress), they anticipate doubling the number of students three times over (20K by 2020).

There was some talk a while back about building housing for OSU-Tulsa students downtown by some officials.  Not sure what came of it, but it is mentioned in their plans:
http://system.okstate.edu/planning/plans/viewplans_tul.php

Currently the University encourages students to live in the area of campus:
http://www.osu-tulsa.okstate.edu/services/housing.asp

Anyway, even with 20,000 students at OSU-Tulsa (which would match or exceed Stillwater) the campus would feel kinda hallow with no Basketball or Football...

[TheArtist]

20,000 students in 13 years going to college at OSU Tulsa... Plus TCC metro expanding and OSU Medical Center, Now we are talking.  That will be some very good growth.  Last time I looked on the OSU Tulsa website they didn't have that stuff.  Nice to see the vision laid out like that.  Hopefully it will succeed.  I guess I will calm down now.[8D]  Thanks for the info guys.  Oh and I like the look of the campus as it is shown in the renderings.

Any idea what the new TCC building will look like?

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Small text kinda sorta off topic...

Somehow this became a comparison to Oklahoma City University, how, Im not sure... but whatever.

I'm not sure either... a little shocked, actually.  OCU has for decades been a good regional school for music and arts.

And it's odd hearing such nice compliments  about my alma mater from somebody with the screen name, SoonerRiceGrad ?!?

Back when I was there, we referred to OCU's  school of business as half commuter-school and  half Oklahoma Chinese University... also when I was there, OCU's law school was a running joke-- the only law school in Oklahoma at the time with mostly part time students (my R.A. in the dorms was some law student who boasted how he once "got kicked in the head by a buffalo in Colorado?!?"  He gave us that mcnugget o' wisdom after we got him really drunk one night and asked him how somebody so stupid could ever get accepted into law school........ at OCU?!?).  []

And OCU's beauty queen angle probably had a lot to do with the fact that pretty female singers  are a dime a dozen and usually don't get big college scholarships at OCU-- so enter Miss America-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_America

quote:"the largest provider of scholarship money to young women in the world, each year awarding more than $45 million in cash and scholarships."

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Also... per athletics.  It is my belief that a strong athletic department serves a university as well as strong academics.

In what context does TU offer a STRONG athletic department?  "We're No.1!  We're No.1!"?  Nope.  TU fans would be perfectly happy to chant "We're No. 25!!!" []

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Perhaps this should not be the case, but without the athletics few people outside the region know of schools except for a select few.

Honestly, very few outside of the region care about TU football... now that Kragthorpe's gone on to greener pastures at a school MUCH LARGER than TU, people outside the region and down the turnpike will care even less... ever heard of "the point of diminishing returns"?

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

No one would know what Notre Dame was (which, incidentally, does not achieve as highly academically as one might imagine).

At the risk of sounding like AOX... TU is NOT, and never will be Notre Dame... oh, and Notre Dame has a better music school than TU... tra la, tra la...

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Nor would many people recognize Auburn, Ganzaga, Syracuse, Northwestern, Baylor, or the like.  While two of those are huge schools, there would still be no reason for people outside the region to really know them.

I could care less about Gonzaga's academic programs, but I do like rooting for the underdog (just like I do for TU or Wichita State or Southern Illinois or Bradley)...
But there is a word for people who go to a college simply because they like the NCAA football or basketball teams, they're called:  LOSERS!

Northwestern has great academic programs... great arts programs... Baylor has its own charm-- did I mention they also offer a much better music program than TU?... Auburn and Syracuse are huge state schools...

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodderFurthermore, TULSA'S ATHLETICS ARE SELF FUNDING.  As I often do, I will post to an actual source instead of just randomly stating what I think as a fact:
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetail.asp?CRITERIA=3

Your link is lacking; don't see anything there... quotes please?... I suppose if by "self-funding," you mean a buncha boosters willing to go hog-wild, offering huge PAYOLA for coaches who'll only stay at TU a few short years before moving onward, you could be right... TU is a minor league college and small fish in the NCAA's feeder system... yay team!!! [}:)]

While Rice, (The Shephard School of Music is a gem, BTW, while TU's music school is a cubic zirconium), a school most closely resembling TU's reality, was pressured into staying in Div I by some of their jocksniffing alumni despite losing $10M per year...

quote:The $10 million per year operating budget deficit being incurred by the athletic department is too high and will be reduced on a phased basis.

"There is a basis for optimism that we can accomplish deficit reduction," Barnett said. "Certainly, many supporters of athletics have declared their readiness to increase giving. We also will be looking at all other ways to increase revenues and reduce costs. The Board will be devoting attention this fall to how this will be accomplished."

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder
While it is true that the expenses probably dont include capital improvement (Im not sure on that, but Im guessing not), Tulsa is not spending millions a year on D-I athletics.  And EVEN IF THEY WERE, the exposure Tulsa gets from appearing in a bowl game, winning the NIT, or going to the elite 8 is more exposure than could be bought with tens of millions of dollars.

 Not spending millions???
See Rice, above... hey, I grew up with Nolan Richardson and TU's "Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now" NIT champs while in high school, and years later camped out at the ESPN Zone in downtown Chicago to watch TU and Bill Selfish in the Elite 8 with some OSU Cowboys' fans.... even watched the heartbreaker TU lost to Wisconsin for a spot in the Sweet 16 a few years back..... I was the only TU supporter in a northside Chicago bar filled with WISCONSIN fans in BADGER RED!

And despite this... and despite having hundreds of rehearsals in my mispent youth at TU as a Tulsa Youth Symphony alum...

I didn't go to TU's music school... and I don't regret it... neither did Kristi Chenoweth...

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder
At least people have HEARD of the school.  Not to mention it gives something for Students, Alumni and family to participate in and be part of their school.

Coming from out of state I knew of Tulsa for its basketball prowess - but had never heard of OCU.

Now you're just being ignorant.  I'm not name calling...... that honor's reserved for Average Joe..... just stating facts here.  And you're ignoring them.  

The best thing OCU did in the 80s was to drop from NCAA Div I down to NAIA basketball.  Then they concentrated on what they did well... serving their community through strong arts programs.

Funny, how "working class" OKC got grass-roots arts in OCU... while "sophisticated" Tulsa got stuck with TU athletics...

And Tulsa wants a state-funded "arts" high school downtown???... in the area of an OSU-Tulsa campus that offers lotsa degrees but NONE in the arts???...

Color me skeptical.  

[cannon_fodder]

Horribly off topic now... I know.  But in response:

First,   I screwed up the font, the off topic part was supposed to be SMALLER than the rest in my previous post.  Sorry.  Now on with the show:

2) I would consider Tulsa's Athletic Department strong for several reasons:
a)  D-I across the board.
b) Most sports are fully funded with scholarship positions
c) Strong booster support
d) Success.  Conference Championships from their first full year in the conference:
Women's Basketball
Football
Tennis
And softball
e) Recently chosen to host championships in several  sports

From a school the size of Tulsa, I would consider that a *VERY* strong athletic department.  I never said that we were the best athletic department in the nation, nor that any of our programs are.  But for a small school, with limited funding, that disqualifies prospects and scholarship athletes for academic reasons...  Tulsa has done damn well.

3) I never said anyone cared about Tulsa athletics... I simply said it makes people aware of the University.  Specifically, I said that without an athletic program many schools would not have the notoriety they enjoy or in many instances never even be heard of.

4) I never compared TU to Notre Dame.  It was a school I mentioned as one primarily known because of its athletics that enjoys a heightened reputation because of it.

5) I also never implied that people should go to a school because of its athletic programs, but it does have an impact.  First, if a high school kid has never even heard of a school it is unlikely that they will have an opportunity to consider attending.  The vast majority of high school kids are ignorant.  They look at schools they have heard of or are familiar to them.  They often chose schools their parents are 'fans' of or they themselves cheer for.  The vast majority of high school students do not seriously consider the academic credentials of a school in the broader marketplace... their 18 and wanting to move out of moms house.  

Likewise, I never dissed any of the schools I mentioned.   I fully realize that Auburn and Syracuse are huge state schools.  But they are huge state schools a full country away from the West Coast and in a different world than the midwest.  There is no reason a high school kid in Nebraska would have heard of either of those institutions if it wasn't for their athletic programs.  I know full well that Baylor and Northwestern are among the finest schools in their respective conferences. I'm sure they have great research departments and other academic affairs, but that in no way broadcasts their name to the ignorant masses.
6) The link was to the Department of Education Title 19 Compliance.  You cannot link directly into the database, so I linked you to the home page.  You had to click the top link and type in "Tulsa."  Below is a link one path deeper into the database:
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/search.asp  - type in Tulsa

They spend $18,169,019 a year ($7,000,000 on scholarships) and bring in $18,169,019.    $6.8 Million of the athletic budget is raised from non-sport specific sources, one would assume that to be boosters, or the renting of facilities.  So, if nothing else, the athletic department funds $7,000,000 scholarships with a disproportionate number to minorities.  

When I said "not spending millions" I was trying to confer that they are not taking millions out of the general fund to pay for athletics.

7) Tulsa is indeed a smaller fish in a big pond per athletics.  It feeds talented coaches to larger schools and has to win with less talent and resources than many larger schools.  So what?  Should everyone but Texas, Nebraska, and Oklahoma drop their football program in the Big 12?  No one but ACC schools bother to play basketball? We should probably disband the Drillers, Oilers, 66ers, and high school sports too... since they just feed larger systems.

I prouder of a small school with limited resources being able to stand up to the big boys and lose, than the school spending more than twice of TU's total athletic budget just on football... scraping out a win over Tulsa.

Im sorry Rice is losing hordes on Athletics.  As one of the best endowed schools in the nation I'm sure they are able to handle it if they so desire.  However, I would like to point out they lose $14,000,000 a year, not 10. (they spend nearly twice on football was Tulsa does).  

9) As per OCU dropping D-1, it may have been the right decision for them but I would be a "jock sniffing alum" and insist Tulsa hold onto its D-1 status.  It is a point of pride for the University, its graduates, and the community, a public service by providing entertainment to the community, an economic engine for the community, a source of scholarships, an activity that unifies the students, a medium to make the university more well-known, and a part of college life.  

All that aside, there is something to be said about watching "your team" play or hearing from a friend in another part of the country tell you they saw "your team" on ESPN last night.  

Anyway, you can keep your grassroots art movement and I'll keep TU athletics.   I go see a game almost once a week and go to Gilcrease/Mayfest or other 'art scene' activities a half dozen times a year.

Oh, and I think a University in Downtown Tulsa would be nice.  
[]

[Renaissance]

The campus will come first, then the football.  Boise State didn't have a D-1 team a decade ago.  South Florida didn't have a team at all.  There is a trend nationally of formerly commuter schools beefing up their athletics as a way to draw in full-time, residential students.  This may be in the future for OSU-Tulsa.  Maybe in 2030 they'll take down USC in the Fiesta Bowl.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Anyway, you can keep your grassroots art movement and I'll keep TU athletics.   I go see a game almost once a week and go to Gilcrease/Mayfest or other 'art scene' activities a half dozen times a year.

Oh, and I think a University in Downtown Tulsa would be nice.  
[]

And I can enjoy the fact that OCU's contribution to "working class" OKC is artistic... while TU athletics, in my opinion, is an overfunded diversion for a tiny private  school... despite TU's bowl appearances of late, TU was ranked 86th of 119 Div I schools in average per game attendance in 2006... once again, this represents a point of diminishing returns...
http://www.kenn.com/sports/football/ncaa/index.html#2006

It would be nice if OSU-Tulsa started playing Div II or NAIA football... but there is still a real void in this city for a first rate school of the arts... OSU-Tulsa could/should fill that void and would be a natural downtown...

[TheArtist]

There are many things that Tulsa could have that would make the city better and more attractive, like having a natatorium for instance.  I believe a world class natatorium was actually proposed at one time for downtown.  There are other types of sports and arts facilities that would be nice for Tulsa to have.  Wouldn't there be great synergies through having those things on or next to the college campus so that the college could use them and thus offer those athletic programs as well? Basically getting more bang for your buck.  How about a joint city and college soccer stadium and fields as another example?  If you would like the city to have a soccer stadium and your college would benefit from being able to offer a great soccer program, you could help both and it would cost a lot less than doing them seperately.

I think this type of thing shows some of the great opportunities that having a college in a downtown can bring and that we haven't been able to consider until now.