Breaking News (IPLAW Excluded)

[iplaw]

quote:
Its amazing how nobody has addressed any of the ISSUES that I raise.

I have.  You don't listen.  You're a TROOFER.  No amount of intelligent discussion will convince you of the error of your ways.  You're being manipulated and actually enjoy it.

Bring them up, one point at a time.  I don't mind embarassing you again...

[guido911]

IP, apparently you cannot follow directions very well. That will certainly affect your credibility/believability on the "troofer" movement.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by altruismsuffers

Its amazing how nobody has addressed any of the ISSUES that I raise.  Instead every single one have you have attacked ME personally for even bringing up the subject.  Why don't you try and explain how the BBC predicted that world trade center 7 was going to fall?  Why don't ANY of you try to address the ISSUE?  Please someone explain to me how the BBC read a script from the future and reported that the building has fell when it stands CLEARLY in tact behind her.  Someone with HALF A BRAIN try and answer this question.

Ever wonder how wire services are able to produce a complete 1000 word obituary on a notable figure within five minutes of the announcement of their death?  Is it something diabolical, did the writer kill the notable figure- no.  It's pre-writing so a story can be posted quick as possible.

The media often anticipates and prepares by pre-writing different scenarios so they can be ready to scoop everyone else.  Catchy headlines of the Super Bowl outcome are already in the working phase with editors as soon as the AFC and NFC championships are decided.  Erroneous information is often spewed out in the midst of confusion, places and people are often mis-identified.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by altruismsuffers
...TulsaTruth.org is the fastest growing progressive group for positive change in all of Tulsa.  It is worth paying attention to because we have 3 FREE movie showings every month.  One at Martin Regional library, one at Hardesty Library, and one at Circle Cinema.  We are also bringing the head of the Star Wars program to speak about bringing together America to stop this fascist regime.  Don't tell me this doesn't have anything to do with Tulsa.

[iplaw]

quote:
We are also bringing the head of the Star Wars program

[cannon_fodder]

For gods sake, this was covered TWO years ago:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=5

Anyway...

Altruism:

First, I admire your faith in the ability of our government.  I for one, think it is a corrupt and incompetent group of inefficient bureaucrats that cant even keep the name of its spies or its troop movements in war a secret.

You however, seem to think that George W. Bush was able to orchestrate the greatest conspiracy theory ever in a matter of months.  This plan apparently involved the airlines, the City of New York, a major real estate developer, the NY/NJ port authority,  demolition experts, air traffic controllers, and the BBC.  For 5 years now, our extremely competent and effective governmental body has been able to keep the thousands of people involved quite.  They also managed to hide any real evidence from the thousands of people that worked at ground zero and the millions who witnessed the events.  Truly an amazing bureaucratic exercise.

------
Now, if you would like me to respond to the 'issues' raised by your conspiracy theory I will need some clarification.

It seems the tinfoil hat types have backed off their broader conspiracy claims about missiles, a lack of passengers on the plans, or CIA operatives flying plans into the buildings - in the face of recordings of the family members about to die describing their attackers, plan debris, witnesses, flight logs, and other pesky details.  So they are now focusing on smaller portions of that day to keep their readers going.

-------------------
So it is that you advance the internet-popular notion that Larry Silverstein decided to demolish WTC 7 on 9/11/2001.    Here the conspiracy begins to get fuzzy, is it your contention that 1) Silverstein came to this decision long before and randomly rigged the building with explosives to be detonated at some later date, 2) he hadnt reached a decision but all of his buildings were rigged with explosives just in case, 3) after the planes hit he quickly had the building rigged to blow, or 4) he orchestrated the entire thing to take down his holdings?

I see problems with all of those.  

First, all the contentions have the problem associated above, massive conspiracy theories are ridiculous because outside of a very small group of people secrets cannot be kept for long, especially when there would be huge personal gain for anyone able to expose them.  

Second, Silverstein lost BILLIONS of dollars on this event.  He has been fighting for 5 years, spending money without making money, to try and recover some of his billions of dollars back.  He had the largest lease on one of the most profitable districts in the world - and now he has a multi billion dollar deductible and tens of millions in legal debts.  Yeah, he did well for himself on this one.  That's why his business partners are really happy and not suing the crap out of him for being under insured - oh wait, they are.

Next, each contention has many, many issues that need to be addressed:

contention 1) There would be a record of the explosive purchases.  There are few crews in the world with the ability to rig a structure for precision demolition, their time is valuable and utilized at 100%, it would b noted if they were there.  Have you ever seen anything about how those demolitions take place?  There are MONTHS of preparation and the removal of the vast number of supports.  Special shaped explosives are placed directly and precisely on the beams (meaning the outer walls have to be removed), demolition of this type and the exposed explosives would have been noticed.

2) All problems listed above.  Plus, if he rigged all his buildings the problems would be multiplied exponentially. Not to mention the same claim would have to be made on all other buildings at the site and explain why some were not demolished.

3) So in few hours after the plan hit he quickly came to the decision that he needs to blow up his buildings and flied in a crack team of demolition experts that he has on standby, trucks in their heavy equipment, exposes the beams, obtains controlled explosives, places the them with precision, sets a couple of fire for cover, sets them off bringing the building down, and then sends them on their way without anyone noticing.  Whew!  What usually takes YEARS of permits, planning and work was done in hours.  Thank god.

4) This one suffers from all the problems above compounded by the fact that one man that doesnt even make the richest men list could somehow pull this all off and get the governments in on it.   Of course, though he wields enough power to manipulate the world media, multinational corporations, governments, and billions of people... he somehow couldn't get a NY judge to rule in his favor.  Sucks to be the king I guess.

------------------------

I think I have raised enough points and directed enough thought at your contention to quell your complaints that no one is paying attention to you.

It might have been simpler to say either:

Since you put so much credit in the BBC's reporting, here is an editorial saying they have nothing to do with this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/02/part_of_the_conspiracy.html

or perhaps:

It is not up to me to prove that you are wrong, the burden lies with he attempting to prove a new theory.  Lest I proclaim purple monkeys live invisibly in the Amazon and be declared right, for no one can prove invisible purple monkeys dont exist, you must have some kind of evidence.  You dont, all you have is a theory.  Until you have a way to test and verify this theory and PROVE that it is better than the existing theory - that Arab terrorists flew a plan in the WTC and massive fires, vibration, and the collapse of substructure led to WTC 7 coming down - then there is no need to respond to your ramblings.
----

I'm sorry I was not able to address your specific concerns about structural integrity, I apparently have not had the engineering training that you have so I am not as knowledgeable about such things as the plethora of experts in design, engineering, construction, demolition, and collapse that testified in the insurance proceedings, for the 911 commission, on the many documentary's on the event, nor even as knowledgeable as the thousands you can find debunking your theory on the internet.  Unless, of course, they are all in on it too (damn engineering colleges are probably in on it, those engineers are always conspiring to bring down western civilization!).  



I fully expect you to put the time, thought, and care into drafting a full response that I did.  I assume you have thoroughly thought out and researched your well articulated and organized points before vomiting them upon the internet, and thus, will be able to defend them aptly.

XoXo,

Jesse

[Conan71]

Jesse,

Please don't waste your time, you could do far more productive things like wash your shoelaces, change the windshield washer fluid in your car, or give a stray cat a bath.  

This has all been 'splained to Lucy before to no avail, just ask IP, and do an archive search on the IP vs. Alt Battle Royale thread from last summer.  Unless you are just itching to throw away an hour of your day, there's no real point.

[rwarn17588]

I find it hilarious that alt claims the U.S. government accomplished this grand conspiracy, but as today proved, can't even blow the cover of one lone CIA agent without someone getting convicted.

[altruismsuffers]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

For gods sake, this was covered TWO years ago:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=5

Anyway...

Altruism:

First, I admire your faith in the ability of our government.  I for one, think it is a corrupt and incompetent group of inefficient bureaucrats that cant even keep the name of its spies or its troop movements in war a secret.

 This was not just OUR government several other countries most likely had there hand in it.  It is not just "the government" it is a small corrupt faction within the government.  Bush lied to take us to war which has killed over 3,000 of our own people and 100's of thousands of others, is it so hard to believe he lied about 9/11.

quote:

You however, seem to think that George W. Bush was able to orchestrate the greatest conspiracy theory ever in a matter of months.  This plan apparently involved the airlines, the City of New York, a major real estate developer, the NY/NJ port authority,  demolition experts, air traffic controllers, and the BBC.  For 5 years now, our extremely competent and effective governmental body has been able to keep the thousands of people involved quite.  They also managed to hide any real evidence from the thousands of people that worked at ground zero and the millions who witnessed the events.  Truly an amazing bureaucratic exercise.

George Bush is an idiot and probably had nothing to do with 9/11.  Once again a small faction within our government.  The have covert operations that go in and overthrow entire countries, it's not that hard to hijack a few planes and turn off all your defenses.  Thousands of the people at ground zero are now dying because of lung disease from the toxic air which was declared "safe to breath".  Not only are they dying but most of them are being denied any compensation.  The people that did get compensation money had to sign a contract in order to get it.  This contract is also a gag order which does not allow them to talk to the press about 9/11.  Many witness's did report flowing melted steel which is impossible from jet fuel especially WEEKS after the collapses.

quote:

------
So it is that you advance the internet-popular notion that Larry Silverstein decided to demolish WTC 7 on 9/11/2001.    Here the conspiracy begins to get fuzzy, is it your contention that 1) Silverstein came to this decision long before and randomly rigged the building with explosives to be detonated at some later date, 2) he hadnt reached a decision but all of his buildings were rigged with explosives just in case, 3) after the planes hit he quickly had the building rigged to blow, or 4) he orchestrated the entire thing to take down his holdings?

It was planned well in advance.

quote:
I see problems with all of those.  

First, all the contentions have the problem associated above, massive conspiracy theories are ridiculous because outside of a very small group of people secrets cannot be kept for long, especially when there would be huge personal gain for anyone able to expose them.  

How long was The Manhatten Project kept secret?  Or the invention on the Stealth fighter?  1,000s of people worked on these secrets and nothing was known until the official release.  How would anyone gain personaly from exposing 9/11 to be a self inflicted wound?  People that are high enough to know anything also know that talking would put themselves, their children, and the entire family at risk.  The people they would be exposing killed 3,000 in front of the whole world, you think they would blink to get rid of a few loose lips?

quote:

Second, Silverstein lost BILLIONS of dollars on this event.  He has been fighting for 5 years, spending money without making money, to try and recover some of his billions of dollars back.  He had the largest lease on one of the most profitable districts in the world - and now he has a multi billion dollar deductible and tens of millions in legal debts.  Yeah, he did well for himself on this one.  That's why his business partners are really happy and not suing the crap out of him for being under insured - oh wait, they are.

Prove how he has lost money.  He bought the complex with a 99 year lease for about $130 million and took out a $3.4 BILLION dollar insurance policy.  That is over about a 3 billion dollar gain.  where is he losing?

quote:
Next, each contention has many, many issues that need to be addressed:

contention 1) There would be a record of the explosive purchases.  There are few crews in the world with the ability to rig a structure for precision demolition, their time is valuable and utilized at 100%, it would b noted if they were there.  Have you ever seen anything about how those demolitions take place?  There are MONTHS of preparation and the removal of the vast number of supports.  Special shaped explosives are placed directly and precisely on the beams (meaning the outer walls have to be removed), demolition of this type and the exposed explosives would have been noticed.

I think you are under estimating the size of this operation.  It was not just some shmucks that hired a demo crew to come in.  The people that pulled this off are the gloabl elitists that are forming the New World Order.  There was plenty of time to set-up the demolition.  When Marvin Bush (George Bush's brother) took over as head of security one of the first things he did was a "cable upgrade".  The entire building was "rewired" or possibly simply "wired".  Weeks before 9/11 there was alot of strange construction reported and many business were shuffled around.  Also just a week before 9/11 there was a series of scheduled power outages.  Not only were there power outages but bomb sniffing dogs were removed from the premises.  

quote:

2) All problems listed above.  Plus, if he rigged all his buildings the problems would be multiplied exponentially. Not to mention the same claim would have to be made on all other buildings at the site and explain why some were not demolished.

Building 3, 4, 5, and 6 were all smaller buildings directly under the Twin Towers.  They sustained MAXIMUM damage and raging fires but DID NOT COLLAPSE.  WTC 7 on the other hand housed the FBI, CIA (possibly a large planner in the event) and several other government agencies along with all the Enron case files.  Not only was this building strong it was overbuilt and housed mayor Guilianis emergeny bunker which cost an extra $13 million.

quote:


4) This one suffers from all the problems above compounded by the fact that one man that doesnt even make the richest men list could somehow pull this all off and get the governments in on it.   Of course, though he wields enough power to manipulate the world media, multinational corporations, governments, and billions of people... he somehow couldn't get a NY judge to rule in his favor.  Sucks to be the king I guess.

Not clear as to what you are refering to.

quote:

------------------------

I think I have raised enough points and directed enough thought at your contention to quell your complaints that no one is paying attention to you.

It might have been simpler to say either:

Since you put so much credit in the BBC's reporting, here is an editorial saying they have nothing to do with this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/02/part_of_the_conspiracy.html

The BBC reporting the building fell before hand is more then just a mistake.  According to FEMA nobody expected it to fall and even NIST has yet to explain its collapse.  This prediction is more then just a jump at getting the latest scoop.  Why did CNN also report that WTC 7 has collapsed an hour early?  Where they trying to get the jump on BBC?  If people knew the buildings were gonna collapse then why did 3,000 unsuspecting people die?

quote:

or perhaps:

It is not up to me to prove that you are wrong, the burden lies with he attempting to prove a new theory.  Lest I proclaim purple monkeys live invisibly in the Amazon and be declared right, for no one can prove invisible purple monkeys dont exist, you must have some kind of evidence.  You dont, all you have is a theory.  Until you have a way to test and verify this theory and PROVE that it is better than the existing theory - that Arab terrorists flew a plan in the WTC and massive fires, vibration, and the collapse of substructure led to WTC 7 coming down - then there is no need to respond to your ramblings.
----

I dont have to prove anything.  The government has to prove their CONSPIRACY theory.  Why is Bin Ladin not wanted for 9/11?  Why were at least 4 of the hijackers reported alive by the BBC?  (just trying to get a jump on the news again?)  Why is it that proffesional pilots claim it is impossible to fly the alleged flight path that hit the pentagon?  These are all questions that the official story cannot answer.

quote:

I'm sorry I was not able to address your specific concerns about structural integrity, I apparently have not had the engineering training that you have so I am not as knowledgeable about such things as the plethora of experts in design, engineering, construction, demolition, and collapse that testified in the insurance proceedings, for the 911 commission, on the many documentary's on the event, nor even as knowledgeable as the thousands you can find debunking your theory on the internet.  Unless, of course, they are all in on it too (damn engineering colleges are probably in on it, those engineers are always conspiring to bring down western civilization!).  

WTC 7 is the biggest mystery to engineers because no building has ever fell from fire alone.  If WTC 7 was damaged on one side it would have fell over not straight down.

quote:

I fully expect you to put the time, thought, and care into drafting a full response that I did.  I assume you have thoroughly thought out and researched your well articulated and organized points before vomiting them upon the internet, and thus, will be able to defend them aptly.

XoXo,

Jesse

I'll go all day, I can't lose.  IPLAW had to resort to stupid pictures and question dodgeing because his feeble mind gave out on him.

[iplaw]

quote:
IPLAW had to resort to stupid pictures and question dodgeing because his feeble mind gave out on him.

Is that why you ran away and only showed back up after I left for a while?

BRING IT ON SKIPPY



Start a new thread just for me and you and let the games begin again.

I'm quite sure you don't have the guts to go another round with me though.

[cannon_fodder]

Ok, so your story is that Larry Silverstein planned 9/11 with rogue factions of the American, British and Saudi governments to secretly demolish his lease holdings with the Port Authority of NY and NJ?


1) Silverstein is a nobody.

Silverstein isnt even on the Forbes 400 list.  He is maybe the third best known real estate developer in New York and no speakable political connections. He's a small fish.  The notion that he, of all people, managed to manipulate a couple of super powers and several trans national corporations is laughable.

2) You are off by several BILLION on his lease terms.

In addition to failing the 'sniff' test, you also have your facts wrong.  Silversteins lease was not for $130m, it was for $3,200,000,000.00.  Money he is still obligated to pay the port authority - with the buildings there or not.  He had insurance for $3.4B.  Pretend $200m sounds like a lot of money, but now remember that he has no income from the leases, is getting sued by many people, and is obligated to rebuild.  In any event, seeing that you were off by 3.07 BILLION, Thus, your mathematical error of 3 BILLION makes this a dead issue.

3) The elite, by definition, are not interested in a new world order.  Why would the people already on top, want to change things?  Not to mention, the predictable result of 9/11 was economic panic and the loss of TRILLIONS in market value.  Again, an impact that hurts the elite.  This notion is far fetch and illogical.  The elite are interested in the status quo.

4) 9/11 and Manhattan are a little different.

Unlike Stealth or nuclear technology, you cannot pull off 4 fake plane hijackings, infiltration of the BBC, corrupting of air traffic controllers, planting explosives, and intergovernmental planning from a few locations involving a handful of people.  Those projects were completed under lock and key and involved few, if any, people outside the company.  Unlike the army of people you propose for this myth.

5) Contrary to what you claim, the NIST fully explain the collapse of WTC 7 in December of 2007.
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/ScheuermanStatementDec2006.pdf

Your claim apparently places this agency outside the conspiracy (or you wouldnt care what they say).  This, their explanation of its collapse must be valid.  They say severe damage to one side, coupled with foundation damage, and prolong fire led to a collapse.   The entire issue of the collapse, is therefor DEAD.

Not to mention that all, ALL, ALL[b/] notped engineers say the building suffered massive damage to one side and coupled with fire and earth quake damage came down.  Unless you are expanding your conspiracy to include the entire engineering community of the world, this issue is dead.

6) It is up to the accuser to prove their claim.

In LOGICAL ARGUMENTS, it is up to the person making a claim to prove it.  As I attempted to explain before, the alternative would mean any theory that cannot be disproved is true.  Thus:  you have an invisible horn of satan on your face that cannot be felt and therefor you are evil.  Must be true because you cant disprove it.

Better yet:  You are magical and can be in two places at one time and you flew the planes into the WTC because your a jerk.  - prove me wrong.

Or how about:
We bombed pearl harbor.
Never landed on the moon.
CIA killed Kennedy.
Johnson was funding the NVA.
OJ is innocent.
The US government gave black people crack.
Elvis lives.
The government secretly meets with aliens.
The US government blew up OKC.
The Bermuda triangle is magical.
Whats his nuts found the tomb of Jesus.
The Cubans keep killing Kennedy's.
I am the second coming of Jesus (though shalt not test me, the lord thy god).

ALl of those MUST, MUST, MUST be true, because you cant prove they arent.

-------------------
So, to recap.

1) Silverstein is a nobody - unlikely a small fish is the grand pub ah of the New World Order.

2) You are off by $3,200,000,000.00 on the terms of the lease. (Unless the public lease was part of the conspiracy too, bringing im the city of NY, the major and counsel, and the 12 banks that underwrote the mortgage on the WTC).

3) Elite members of society are not interested in changing the stutus quo - they are already the elite.

4) A government research project and the mass international killing of thousands are not comparable "secret projects."

5) Contrary to your claim, both the NIST and a multitude of engineers have explained the collapse of WTC 7.

and 6)  I am the son of god.

Unless you bring up something new (that I havent read on a tinfoil hat website) and actually want to address the facts as presented above in a logical way... Im going to go about my day.

- Jesse

[altruismsuffers]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Ok, so your story is that Larry Silverstein planned 9/11 with rogue factions of the American, British and Saudi governments to secretly demolish his lease holdings with the Port Authority of NY and NJ?

I never said Silverstein planned anything so don't assume anything.  The port authority was owned by elitists.  John D Rockefeller led the urban renewal of NYC and was a huge asset in the building of the Twin Towers.  Rockefeller also happend to be the person who started the Trilateral Commission in which many world leaders attend secret meetings and plan the future of the world.  People like, George Bush 41, Bill Clinton, Dick Cheney, Henry Kissinger and many more.  So that the Port Authority decided to hand over the lease to a civilian, it was not just ANY civilian.

quote:

1) Silverstein is a nobody.

Silverstein isnt even on the Forbes 400 list.  He is maybe the third best known real estate developer in New York and no speakable political connections. He's a small fish.  The notion that he, of all people, managed to manipulate a couple of super powers and several trans national corporations is laughable.

This was already covered.  He is somebody.  Forbes 400 list?  Do you buy into that?  Do you really think Bill Gates is the richest man in the world?  Did you know the word gullible is not in the dictionary?  Don't you think that the bankers that own the Federal Reserve and who print and loan us our Federal Reserve notes are making a lil more money?  You do know the Federal Reserve is a PRIVATE BANK and this PRIVATE BANK prints a debt note and then lends it to us.  Then we (US Taxpayers) pay back this debt WITH INTEREST.  Do you know what fractional reserve banking is?  I got news for you, the richest people in the world that are pulling the strings are NOT on Forbes 400.

quote:
2) You are off by several BILLION on his lease terms.

In addition to failing the 'sniff' test, you also have your facts wrong.  Silversteins lease was not for $130m, it was for $3,200,000,000.00.  Money he is still obligated to pay the port authority - with the buildings there or not.  He had insurance for $3.4B.  Pretend $200m sounds like a lot of money, but now remember that he has no income from the leases, is getting sued by many people, and is obligated to rebuild.  In any event, seeing that you were off by 3.07 BILLION, Thus, your mathematical error of 3 BILLION makes this a dead issue.

Your right his lease was for $3.2 billion....over 99 years...  However he only had the building for a few months before the attacks.  He was awarded about $5 Billion altogether and the Port Authority has taken back some of the rights to the property.  For all I know the poor sucker could have just been a pawn in the game but to me it still looks like he will be doing ok.

quote:


3) The elite, by definition, are not interested in a new world order.  Why would the people already on top, want to change things?  Not to mention, the predictable result of 9/11 was economic panic and the loss of TRILLIONS in market value.  Again, an impact that hurts the elite.  This notion is far fetch and illogical.  The elite are interested in the status quo.

Dude, your wrong.  That is why Bush 41  on September 11th 1991 Talked about a New World Ordercoming into view.  If you have all the money you could ever want what else is there?  Power.  A dip in the market does not matter when you own the market.  They are more interested in securing resources like land and OIL.  

quote:

4) 9/11 and Manhattan are a little different.

Unlike Stealth or nuclear technology, you cannot pull off 4 fake plane hijackings, infiltration of the BBC, corrupting of air traffic controllers, planting explosives, and intergovernmental planning from a few locations involving a handful of people.  Those projects were completed under lock and key and involved few, if any, people outside the company.  Unlike the army of people you propose for this myth.

5) Contrary to what you claim, the NIST fully explain the collapse of WTC 7 in December of 2007.
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/ScheuermanStatementDec2006.pdf

This was a paper produced by some guy named Scheuerman.  It is not a paper produce by NIST.  Here is the Latest NIST Report and it claims "No conclusions or findings will be presented as the analysis is ongoing"

quote:
Your claim apparently places this agency outside the conspiracy (or you wouldnt care what they say).  This, their explanation of its collapse must be valid.  They say severe damage to one side, coupled with foundation damage, and prolong fire led to a collapse.   The entire issue of the collapse, is therefor DEAD.

It is important that they have not released information not because they are going to give a reliable report but because it is taking so long for them to make one.  Why are they having such a tough time describing a simple structural failure if that is what happened?  Maybe its because ALL the steel was hauled away and recycled?  Sounds like destruction of a crime scene to me, isn't that a felony?

quote:

Not to mention that all, ALL, ALL notped engineers say the building suffered massive damage to one side and coupled with fire and earth quake damage came down.  Unless you are expanding your conspiracy to include the entire engineering community of the world, this issue is dead.

If all noted Engineers agree this building fell from fire then why is there NO PHYSICS to describe it.  There is no logical explaination that has been brought to the table.  In order to do a proper study you have to look at ALL EVIDENCE and you can't pick and choose pieces of the puzzle to fit the answer you want.  

[iplaw]

ARE YOU HIDING FROM ME ASSCLOWN?

[cannon_fodder]

quote:[People make up conspiracy theories.] But our report . . . it is extensive. We consulted 80 public-sector experts and 125 private-sector experts. It is a Who's Who of experts. People look for other solutions. As scientists, we can't worry about that. Facts are facts." - Head of the NIST

Ok, so now the story is that John D Rockefeller, Bush the first, Bill Clinton, Dick Cheney, the Queen, the Vatican and Col. Sanders have secret meetings at a place - known as "the Meadows" - to plan for the New World Order.  It must be very sad to be you, having a honest belief that everyone is  plotting against you.

1) The Trilateral Commission is a publicly chartered private think tank.  Just like the Brookings Institute, the Cato Institute, or 100 other ones. The difference being, they only invite members who are highly successful in order to draw the highest profile.  Would that make for a pretty ****ty secret society bent on world domination?

Not to mention its membership list includes communists, socialists, and market capitalists.  The leaders included are from Russia, the USA, Japan, Canada, the EU and others.  All their membership roles are public, as are their meeting minutes, goals, funding, and publications.  For GODS SAKE, JIMMY CARTER IS A MEMBER of this supposedly evil organization?

Again, this group isnt trying to form a New World Order - they are the current world order.

This super secret evil organization bent on world domination and the repression of all things holy also has its own public web site:
http://www.trilateral.org/about.htm

They are either the world most incompetent evil organization, or just a think tank trying to bring closer cooperation between the world industrialized nations.  Though all evidence points to the latter, I'm sure you will chose the former.

2) The Federal Reserve Banking System is owned, operated, funded, and controlled by the United States. In spite of what an Austrian conspiracy theorist says, interest is not paid by the US to banks via the FED.

I hold degrees in both accounting and finance, chair an investment fund, and consider myself a novice market economist.  Please dont insult me by questioning my knowledge in this area.

The FEDs board of directors is appointed by the president.  Its operating budget comes from Congress.  Its policy authority comes from the executive branch as granted by Congress.  Its currency policy is implement by the United States Mint.

Private banks do not have the right to print their own currency, that right was explicitly revoked during reconstruction.  The U.S. Mint (also owned, funded, created, and operated by the US government) is the only entity authorized to print or circulate currency in the United States.

There are private MEMBER BANKS to the federal reserve system.  Any bank that is listed as a "National Bank" must pay a fee to the federal reserve system and be chartered as a member bank.  Congress setup this system to offset the cost of economic regulation.  Other banks can chose to be a member if they so desire, since consumers demand FDIC protection - most do.  These member banks have no voting rights in the board of directors and no influence over the US Mint.

The interest that is paid, as dictated by the Reserve, is the interest paid between the banks on over night largely on intrabank loans.  The interest of these loans is NOT paid by the reserve, the us tax payer, nor any evil group of men.

Any information that you have that would help prove that member banks are printing their own money should be brought to the attention of the US Secret Service at 918-581-7272 as this action would be highly illegal and a threat to our national economy.

Again, you seem to have some basic facts wrong and a misunderstand of our banking system.  I hope I have educated you to some degree and await your new conspiracy theory on this matter. Please dont throw tired conspiracies by obscure Austrians at me anymore... Karl Steinhauser is a crack pot.

2) Any information as to who the "real rich people" are would be very profitable.  If you share it with me, I will make sure to cut you in on the vast amount of wealth that we could generate by publishing the "real list" of the richest people.  

Either you have better information than the enormous staff's of the Economist, Forbes, Wall Street Journal, CNN and every other major media news outlet and chose not to share the "real information,"  they and all their MILLIONS of employees are in on the conspiracy, or you're a crack pot.

3) You were wrong on the lease terms and have now crafted a NEW conspiracy theory.  I cannot waste time pointing out how all the flaws in every new hair brained theory you can vomit onto the internet because your old theory has been quickly cast aside.  You will have to come up with sound theories backed by facts the first time.

4) Awesome.  I wondered how long it would take you to reference the "New World Order" speech.  

Contrary to your belief, this serves to proof the nonexistence of your conspiracy.  The essence of any conspiracy, by definition, is that it is a secret.  Why would the most powerful man in the world purposely chose to use those words in his speech if there really was such a grand conspiracy?  He wouldnt.  

There can be no such conspiracy.  Either because it doesnt exist and he was using language referring to the end of the cold war or by virtue of it no longer being a secret.  If its not a secret (because he announced it to the world), its has ceased to be a conspiracy.

5)  WTC 7
First, and foremost, this grand conspiracy stems from a governmental agency allocating their priority to the twin towers and waiting to finish the report on WTC 7.  For whatever reason, you currently believe the NIST is outside the grand scope of the New World Order Triumvirate Evil Doers conspiracy. So this will all be moot in a month when they release their report.

You cited to their APPROACH SUMMARY.  Anyone who has ever been part of a research project would know that an approach summary is not, nor is it intended to be, a finding of fact.  It is a guide to how the research will be conducted.

I, on the other hand, cited to a research report conducted by a fire expert in NYC and accepted by the NIST.  

It doesnt really matter though.  In you're world you can ignore anything you chose no matter how noted the source by gaftly sniping "They're in on it!" So when the NIST releases their final report in the near future, you can just ignore it if you dont like it.  You seriously dont see the error in that logic?

So you dont have to wait for their preliminary report and you can go ahead and say their part of the evil group now, here are their preliminary findings released to debunk the very myth you advance:

quote:
14. Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?

When NIST initiated the WTC investigation, it made a decision not to hire new staff to support the investigation. After the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, the NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned full-time through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC towers.  With the release and dissemination of the report on the WTC towers in October 2005, the investigation of the WTC 7 collapse resumed. Considerable progress has been made since that time, including the review of nearly 80 boxes of new documents related to WTC 7, the development of detailed technical approaches for modeling and analyzing various collapse hypotheses, and the selection of a contractor to assist NIST staff in carrying out the analyses. It is anticipated that a draft report will be released by early 2007.

The current NIST working collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, page 17, as well as Appendix L), as follows:

   *

     An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;

   *

     Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and

   *

     Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors) resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.

This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation. NIST also is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements.

Go ahead and say their in on it so we can move on.

6) All noted engineers agree with the theory I am advancing.  

MIT
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/1721.1/31114/1/61145960.pdf
the NIST
As cited above
Stanford
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2001/december5/wtc-125.html
as well as Fema, American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE), the Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE), the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), the American Institute of Steel Construction (AISC), the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH), and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY).

I'm waiting for your list of noted scholars, intellectuals, and institutions that support your theory.  

------------------
It is very clear that you will simply claim anyone of note that is contrary to your conspiracy theory will be declared "part of the theory" and cast aside.  If you refuse to listen to the experts who can tell you how the Federal Reserve System operates, who the richest people are, or why a building falls over - then feel free to invent whatever you want on any subject and run with it.  I couldnt care less.

But to pretend that you are a learned individual with facts to share with the world is dangerous.  Some idiot might believe that you have a clue what you are talking about.

--------------------------------------
So... to recap:

1)  The Trilateral Commission is as threatening as one of its high profile members: Jimmy Carter.

2) You have no idea how the Federal Reserve System operates and ignore all evidence to the contrary to believe longtime conpiracist Karl Steinhauser (the Jews did it!).

3) You were wrong on the WTC lease terms by $3B, let it go.

4) A conspiracy, by definition is a secret.  If a president mentions a "New World Order" in a speech any secret conspiracy in that regard ceases to be a conspiracy.  So either his evil plan didnt exist, or it is the open policy of our government - either way, not an evil conspiracy.

5) The NIST is releasing findings that agree with me, not you.  Ergo, you need to find a new conspiracy.

6) A brief list of organizations that dont believe WTC 7 was demolished:
MIT, the NIST, Stanford, Fema, American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE), the Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE), the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), the American Institute of Steel Construction (AISC), the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH), and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY).

I still havent seen you cite a credible source.
---------

I am glad to see you have accepted that the burden is on you, that the Manhattan project and 9/11 are different animals, and that I am the son of God.  I must ask you though, why do you believe everyone is out to get you?  Are you just bored?

[tim huntzinger]

On Coast to Coast last night another group is slinging startling allegations.  HawksCAFE asserts that remote-controlled explosives illegally added to Boeing 737's brought down 93 and blah blah blah.

Anyone want to venture a guess why Terry Nichols is now blaming the FBI for the Murrah bombing?