Stop thinking about E85, start thinking CNG

[inteller]

I've been doing some math, but I'll let you decide.  I think it is better to drive a CNG vehucle than E85 and here is why:

new Civic GX configured the way I wamt it:

27,524

-1500 OK tax credit
-5000 Federal Credit

21024

Not bad?  but wait, I need to fill it up.  No problem, www.tulsagastech.com installs in home refill stations for @$4000

and you get an OK tax credit of 50% towards this, plus Feds give you $1000 tax credit towards this.  So that suddenly becomes $1000 to install.

so for about $22000 I can get a CNG car that costs $1.25 GGE (gas gallon eqivilent) to fill up.  Not only that, but if I install the home fill station, I qualify with ONG to get special home refill gas rates, which means all the gas I use at my house is at a lower rate.

I didn't even discuss the 50% tax deduction on the vehicle, since that would vary based on income, tax credits are direct write offs to your tax liability that anyone can get.

So if you are shopping for a new car, consider this.


oh, the car gets 28 in city and 39mpg hwy.

[cannon_fodder]

From what I know, they offer up to 150 mile driving range.  So this would have to be a around town car.

Not to mention, without all the government giveaways, they dont pay for themselves.  

Still - its not oil so a step in the right direction.  I'm looking forward to hydrogen taking off personally.  For the user, it would be nearly the same as these CNG vehicles but with the benefits of an electric drive system and water vapor emissions.

[Conan71]

Those are pretty astonishing mileage numbers for CNG.  Usually the fuel economy is not as good as gasoline with CNG, I think about 1/2 to 5/8 of the range.  Are you certain that's the range configured with CNG or on gasoline?

If your MPG is that good, then the only draw-back becomes having to plan out-of-town trip routes to where you can get CNG out on the road.

[sgrizzle]

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001cartablef.jsp?id=23862

[Conan71]

Interesting facts, thanks Grizz.

Compared to the truck I drive now, the Civic would save me about 2/3 of my driving costs.  

At 15,000 miles per year, assuming an average gas cost of $2.25 a gallon I'd spend $2250 in gas.

Now, the down-side:  I need a truck and I'm somewhat claustrophobic in smaller cars.  But I am doing my part recreationally- my other vehicle is a sailboat.  Beats that Civic hands-down on fuel economy. []

[si_uk_lon_ok]

The VW Lupo is even better than the civic. The diesel manages 78mpg, which makes it even more efficient than the Prius. I think the future for the time being is getting the most out of diesel and gas, while the medium to long term will be the development of new fuels.
You can run diesel cars on vegtable oil or hemp oil with a few modifications which can lower the costs and carbon footprint.

[inteller]

according to honda the range of the vehicle is 200 miles in real world driving.  I think they say 230 on paper.  It isn't just an around town car.  You could go to OKC and back because there is adequate filling stations along the way (CNG is offered at turnpike stops).

I recently saw a price check that said CNG in Oklahoma is $0.94 GGE (gas gallon equivilent)  The tank only holds 8 GGE, that is why it is range limited.  Still, I would rather pay $0.94 and fill up more often and not be lining the pockets of Exxon and terrorists (is there a difference?)

I found out some more information that Oklahoma tax credits you 50% of the incremental cost.  According to Honda the incremental cost is $6350, so you are going to get $3000 tax credit for that.

I guess I (nor anyone) can complain that the government isnt doing enough to wean us off of oil.

I think a side benefit is that by using CNG you are helping the local economy since Oklahoma is the second largest natural gas producer in the country and we are home to 4 of the top 20 natural gas producing companies in the country (Devon, Chesapeake, Williams, Samson)

BTW, you can get CNG propelled Chevy trucks, but you'd probably have to get one through fleet sales.  Heck if you really want a truck just call ONG and see if they have any up for sale.  There is also a joint called www.cngmotors.com in Arizona that sells used CNGs, but you probably cant take the tax credit on one if its already been claimed.  Apparently GM made a CNG Hummer H2....thats crazy, but I'd feel less guilty driving that than a gas guzzling H2.

[cannon_fodder]

OneOKs vehicles run on CNG and their parking garage downtown has CNG terminals.  I parked at one with my gas guzzling Buick for a few months. [8D]

[sgrizzle]

There is a car dealer here in town who sells only CNG vehicles. No idea where though.

Hybrids, e85, cng are all stop-gap measures until real alternatives like hydrogen fuel-cells can be used.

No way to say it's not feasible either after they built the H-Racer, a toy car that runs on water and sunlight.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

There is a car dealer here in town who sells only CNG vehicles. No idea where though.

Hybrids, e85, cng are all stop-gap measures until real alternatives like hydrogen fuel-cells can be used.

No way to say it's not feasible either after they built the H-Racer, a toy car that runs on water and sunlight.

I didn't imply that it wasnt a stop gap measure.  But if someone needs a car TODAY and doesn't have 6 years to wait for hydrogen cars and infrastructure, why not get one of these.  You aren't going to keep the car forever anyways...and if in 6 years hydrogen still isnt here, you can just buy another CNG car and keep using cheap fuel.

 It sure beats paying $3 a gal for gas that you KNOW we will be paying by mid summer.  A convienent refinery fire here, a pipeline explosion there....the ****ers in the oil business will do anything to keep prices high.  Oil went below $60 a barrel, but gas shot up 2o cents.  The refiners are CROOKS.


I think all the reasons for NOT doing this have been rebuffed.  The fuel infrastructure is there, the incentives are a plenty and its cheap.

[sgrizzle]

Yeah, cng has been around for decades, just becoming cost-feasible for the common consumer now.

[Conan71]

SI- How much are you paying per liter for Petrol in the UK?

Grizz- I think you are talking about Morris Motors down in Morris, might be wrong he may be here in Tulsa.  They did a story on the guy awhile back on the TV news.  Looked like most of his cars/trucks were ONG surplus.  A friend of mine bought one of ONG's 1/2 ton trucks a few years ago says his range is about 120 to 130 miles.  He loves it but all his driving with it is around town.  He takes another vehicle out of town.

Other than absolute government mandate, demand for alt fuel vehicles is going to be reluctant until auto makers can overcome the paradigms and skepticisms of lots of drivers.

[inteller]

i'm sure the reluctance will ease when people are getting bent over this summer for gas.

the first people to hit are the ones driving cars now for commuting purposes that get sucky gas mileage.  Think most Big 3 crap cars.

the next people to hit up are the people considering civics, corollas, Focuses, and the like that don't know that you can get huge tax breaks for buying CNG cars.

the ole stand by group are tree huggers that simply don't know about CNG vehicles or are new to green concepts.

i mean I think the new Civic body style is super cool looking, unlike the rolling egg that a prius looks like.

Two hiccups that people have to get over are the loss in trunk space and the limited range.  I think people can get over the limited range issue when they are filling up for $1 GGE.  For the trunk issue, people will just have to adapt.  really though, I think such a car will make a good second vehicle.  people can still keep a gas drinker around for long trips.  Or alternatively, get a flex fuel vehicle so if you head north you can take advantage of ethanol.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

SI- How much are you paying per liter for Petrol in the UK?

Grizz- I think you are talking about Morris Motors down in Morris, might be wrong he may be here in Tulsa.  They did a story on the guy awhile back on the TV news.  Looked like most of his cars/trucks were ONG surplus.  A friend of mine bought one of ONG's 1/2 ton trucks a few years ago says his range is about 120 to 130 miles.  He loves it but all his driving with it is around town.  He takes another vehicle out of town.

Other than absolute government mandate, demand for alt fuel vehicles is going to be reluctant until auto makers can overcome the paradigms and skepticisms of lots of drivers.

I pay 89p a litre for petrol. Thats about $1.71. Its more for the high octane petrol.

[Conan71]

[B)][B)][B)]

Roughly $6 to $6.25 a gallon.  I'd be looking for something that got 75 mpg too!