Governor please veto these hateful bills

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Oh and another thing.  What do you think all these devoutly religious, Catholic people will think about your other pet political issue, gay marriages?

Are you going to turn around and call them hateful for not seeing eye-to-eye with you, because I can guarantee you, they won't.

...and abortion?  Not even an option to devout Catholics.

Here's HT's new neighbor:

[iplaw]

Isn't that the house from the Munsters?

[cannon_fodder]

To all parties involved:

So what's the solution?

I do no believe most people immigrate to this country for low grade government benefits (legally or otherwise).  As I explained above most people come to try for a better life.  The USA has immigration laws that severely restrict the numbers of immigrants allowed for even highly skilled positions that our industry is starved for (anything to do with math and science basically).  Our numbers for unskilled low wage jobs are even more lop sided (but I still think the denial of skilled workers is far more perplexing).

1) Does anyone think this bill will have a significant impact on illegal immigration to Oklahoma?

2) What do you think is the primary cause of illegal immigration?

3) How do we stop it?

I answer no, it will not have an effect.  I think the primary cause is poverty in Latin America and economic freedom in the USA. The solution is economic development in the South and worker programs in the North coupled with real border enforcement.  If people who want to work have a way of coming in legally, they will.  And the border patrol will be able to better do its job of protecting our border instead of being forced to round up flat broke unskilled laborers illegally crossing our deserts over and over and over again.

Everyone is dancing around the issue and spouting our circumstantial or anecdotal evidence to support their varying views, WITHOUT identifying the cause of the problem or any possible solutions.

/steps off his soap box

[iplaw]

quote:The solution is economic development in the South and worker programs in the North coupled with real border enforcement.

I don't think anyone could argue with this, other than HT, who wants complete and unfettered access to America by anyone who can gimp cross our borders.

[Conan71]

Let's not trample all over why people immigrate again.  

But, I will dispute two points though:  sneaking across the border and having a child in a U.S. hospital who automatically becomes a U.S. citizen, is hardly low-grade benefits.

Second, unless something has changed since I was in college, campuses across the country have many legal immigrants here learning math and sciences who eventually go on to take high-skilled or high-tech jobs.  The people who are coming from the south are not exactly looking for IT work.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Isn't that the house from the Munsters?

No.  That'll be the White House in another 20 years w/o immigration reform.

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

To all parties involved:

So what's the solution?

I do no believe most people immigrate to this country for low grade government benefits (legally or otherwise).  As I explained above most people come to try for a better life.  The USA has immigration laws that severely restrict the numbers of immigrants allowed for even highly skilled positions that our industry is starved for (anything to do with math and science basically).  Our numbers for unskilled low wage jobs are even more lop sided (but I still think the denial of skilled workers is far more perplexing).

1) Does anyone think this bill will have a significant impact on illegal immigration to Oklahoma?

2) What do you think is the primary cause of illegal immigration?

3) How do we stop it?

I answer no, it will not have an effect.  I think the primary cause is poverty in Latin America and economic freedom in the USA. The solution is economic development in the South and worker programs in the North coupled with real border enforcement.  If people who want to work have a way of coming in legally, they will.  And the border patrol will be able to better do its job of protecting our border instead of being forced to round up flat broke unskilled laborers illegally crossing our deserts over and over and over again.

Everyone is dancing around the issue and spouting our circumstantial or anecdotal evidence to support their varying views, WITHOUT identifying the cause of the problem or any possible solutions.

/steps off his soap box

The root causes of the illegal immigration problem are the economic disparity in Mexico brought on by a corrupt government, and our (increasingly) corrupt government that doesn't want to enforce the laws already on the books. If employers that hire illegal aliens were routinely fined and even imprisoned the major draw for people coming here illegally to work would be taken away. And there should be some kind of option for those wanting to come here and work to do so, legally. But granting amnesty to the 12-20 million who are here will not work; we saw what happened in the 80s when we tried that. To those that want to come here legally and abide by our laws/integrate into our culture - I welcome them.

[cannon_fodder]

No, the immigration from the South is not comprised of mostly educated people.  I was trying to illustrate the problem with the immigration system as a whole.  Denying immigrants from Europe, India and the rest of Asia who are highly skilled in areas we need.

Hell, I graduated with people from TU law who couldnt get work Visa's to legally stay in the United States.

[iplaw]

As did I, and I think we might know some of the same people.  I have a good friend that's from South Africa who has been here for 10 years and almost got the boot about 6 months ago because they "ran out" of work visas.

A bar registered attorney who can't get citizenship...

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

To all parties involved:

So what's the solution?

I do no believe most people immigrate to this country for low grade government benefits (legally or otherwise).  As I explained above most people come to try for a better life.  The USA has immigration laws that severely restrict the numbers of immigrants allowed for even highly skilled positions that our industry is starved for (anything to do with math and science basically).  Our numbers for unskilled low wage jobs are even more lop sided (but I still think the denial of skilled workers is far more perplexing).

1) Does anyone think this bill will have a significant impact on illegal immigration to Oklahoma?

2) What do you think is the primary cause of illegal immigration?

3) How do we stop it?

I answer no, it will not have an effect.  I think the primary cause is poverty in Latin America and economic freedom in the USA. The solution is economic development in the South and worker programs in the North coupled with real border enforcement.  If people who want to work have a way of coming in legally, they will.  And the border patrol will be able to better do its job of protecting our border instead of being forced to round up flat broke unskilled laborers illegally crossing our deserts over and over and over again.

Everyone is dancing around the issue and spouting our circumstantial or anecdotal evidence to support their varying views, WITHOUT identifying the cause of the problem or any possible solutions.

/steps off his soap box

The root causes of the illegal immigration problem are the economic disparity in Mexico brought on by a corrupt government, and our (increasingly) corrupt government that doesn't want to enforce the laws already on the books. If employers that hire illegal aliens were routinely fined and even imprisoned the major draw for people coming here illegally to work would be taken away. And there should be some kind of option for those wanting to come here and work to do so, legally. But granting amnesty to the 12-20 million who are here will not work; we saw what happened in the 80s when we tried that. To those that want to come here legally and abide by our laws/integrate into our culture - I welcome them.

TFIT- You are on the same page with a lot of us on the issue.  

I'm for a 90-day compliance with getting on the road to naturalization, to go through the same channel every other naturalized citizen has gone through, nothing less.  It's essentially amnesty though I hate that term.  

What would be the solution you have in mind as to what to do with the 12-20mm already here?  Not trying to start a flame out at all, just wanting to hear if there is another workable solution we haven't already discussed here.

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

No flame out at all - that's a perfectly legitimate question. My opinion is that they would go back home, at least most of them. Most of the illegal immigrants are not here for love of this country, they are here to support their families in any way they can. When the available work dries up, they can go back home the way they came. I seriously doubt you'll see millions of illegal homeless on the streets as a result because let's face it - many of them are indeed hard workers and do have values (usually family first). I would actually not have a huge problem if there were some kind of naturalization plan that started these people on a legal path - after weeding out the bad seeds. But, that is where the line would have to be drawn - no more lax laws on illegal immigration after that - and enforcement of the laws to where this doesn't happen again. I don't see our government doing that because look what happened the last time. One more thing; if we were to grant amnesty (which is essentially what it is) to the 12-20 million illegals here now, we would need to set up some kind of restriction on family members coming in as well. I certainly don't think it would be just to let only workers stay and wives/kids be sent back, but in-laws, uncles, aunts, no - they need to stay in Mexico and try to come into this country legally.

[cannon_fodder]

All hail Jorgen and Vahagn (Vaughn).

Something needs to change.  I hope we all agree on that.

[rwarn17588]

I think there's definitely a compromise available.

Check out this poll released yesterday.

WASHINGTON — While Congress and the White House remain divided over what to do with the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants living in the USA, a new poll shows the American public appears to have reached a consensus on the question.

A USA TODAY/Gallup Poll taken last weekend found that 78% of respondents feel people now in the country illegally should be given a chance at citizenship.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-04-18-illegal-immigrants_N.htm?csp=34

So the deportation crowd is way out of touch on this issue.

Really, though, I'm amazed at that 78 percent number. Give credit to the American people for their pragmatism.

BTW, I don't agree with everything Hometown says about this issue, but he is correct in that Okies were expressly forbidden from entering some parts of California during the Depression. I've done a lot of reading over the years about the history of Route 66 and the Dust Bowl, and these horrible acts are well-documented.

[iplaw]

I would think that "given a chance at citizenship" would not be the same as immediate and uncontested amnesty...I'm for giving them a chance at citizenship.

...so people like HT and others are out of touch as well...

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas

No flame out at all - that's a perfectly legitimate question. My opinion is that they would go back home, at least most of them. Most of the illegal immigrants are not here for love of this country, they are here to support their families in any way they can. When the available work dries up, they can go back home the way they came. I seriously doubt you'll see millions of illegal homeless on the streets as a result because let's face it - many of them are indeed hard workers and do have values (usually family first). I would actually not have a huge problem if there were some kind of naturalization plan that started these people on a legal path - after weeding out the bad seeds. But, that is where the line would have to be drawn - no more lax laws on illegal immigration after that - and enforcement of the laws to where this doesn't happen again. I don't see our government doing that because look what happened the last time. One more thing; if we were to grant amnesty (which is essentially what it is) to the 12-20 million illegals here now, we would need to set up some kind of restriction on family members coming in as well. I certainly don't think it would be just to let only workers stay and wives/kids be sent back, but in-laws, uncles, aunts, no - they need to stay in Mexico and try to come into this country legally.

Call it the weed & seed program []

I looked for it, but I think the last useful post we had on the immigration issue got deleted because one of the children on this board started up with his childish rants, taunts, and nonsense and the rest of us kids gave him a swirlie. []

There were some good thoughts on it.  I don't believe the millions of homeless myth either.  However, there are a lot of un-documented aliens working in agriculture, service, and production that it would cripple a decent segment of the economy if we just rounded them up and sent them back.  I kid you not, there would be a sudden scarcity of many food items, clothing, and other consumer goods.

I agree that there should be no carte blanche for the rest of the family to enter the country- that makes zero sense, and I agree that spouses and kids should not be separated from the bread-winner.  I also don't believe that children born to aliens here should become citizens unless/until their parents are naturalized.  

Quick summary of my ideas on it:

-The border has got to be sealed from the Pacific ocean to the Gulf Coast first.

-Crack down on bogus ID mills

-Make employers responsible for compliance of their workers in getting on the path to naturalization.  Also tie in a new law for the amount of exemptions all American workers can legally claim on their W-4 and require proof of dependents to justify exemptions.  (This is a major area where the gov't and rest of the taxpayers get ripped-off even by the hard working illegals.)  That way, if they don't file a 1040, the gov't doesn't get short-changed.

-The individual or employer is responsible for every penny of the cost to get naturalized.  They have 90 days to get documented.  Those who don't compy- boot 'em out starting on the 91st day.  Weed out the bad ones, no shot at citizenship- immediate deportation.

-No short-cuts to naturalization, with the exception of shortening the time for immediate families of those who elect to serve in the military, but still impose the same moral and language requirements as are expected of all other immigrants.  Aliens in the military already enjoy an expedited path to citizenship.