Governor please veto these hateful bills

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

I can see a lot of your points Conan, and agree with most if not all. I don't have a problem with reasoned and intellectual discussions on the issue; it's not all black and white. What infuriates me is comments from some on this forum (like HT) saying that if you're against illegal immigration you're racist, out of touch, Ozzie and Harriot throwbacks, and on and on and on. Then, the intentional inflammatory remarks to incite some kind of culture war with "you lose," "the browning of the country," and so on.

Statements like these are meant to divide, and aren't about reasonable and responsible debate on what to do about something that needs to be addressed. HT wants to turn a blind eye and let the anarchy continue.

My biggest problem is what we would do after providing this path to citizenship - we CANNOT simply continue to have an unsecured border and permit this kind of thing to go on anymore.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

I think there's definitely a compromise available.

Check out this poll released yesterday.

WASHINGTON — While Congress and the White House remain divided over what to do with the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants living in the USA, a new poll shows the American public appears to have reached a consensus on the question.

A USA TODAY/Gallup Poll taken last weekend found that 78% of respondents feel people now in the country illegally should be given a chance at citizenship.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-04-18-illegal-immigrants_N.htm?csp=34

So the deportation crowd is way out of touch on this issue.

Really, though, I'm amazed at that 78 percent number. Give credit to the American people for their pragmatism.

BTW, I don't agree with everything Hometown says about this issue, but he is correct in that Okies were expressly forbidden from entering some parts of California during the Depression. I've done a lot of reading over the years about the history of Route 66 and the Dust Bowl, and these horrible acts are well-documented.

Those numbers are a little higher than I would have expected too.  I think you hit the nail on the head on the pragmatism.  I believe enough people now realize that there are important parts of the economy served by people who are already here and realize the crime rate amongst latinos isn't significantly different per capita than in any other racial or ethnic segment in U.S. society.

HT's statement is avacados and grapes far as I'm concerned. Californians were trying to protect jobs and preserve services for their own residents from other U.S. citizens which was wrong, though understandable looking back at the state of the economy in the depression.  

Oklahoma's law is not aimed at legal immigrants nor U.S. citizens and is hardly xenophobic.  There are plenty of jobs available for legal immigrant workers right now, considering we are at full employment in the state and most parts of the country.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas

I can see a lot of your points Conan, and agree with most if not all. I don't have a problem with reasoned and intellectual discussions on the issue; it's not all black and white. What infuriates me is comments from some on this forum (like HT) saying that if you're against illegal immigration you're racist, out of touch, Ozzie and Harriot throwbacks, and on and on and on. Then, the intentional inflammatory remarks to incite some kind of culture war with "you lose," "the browning of the country," and so on.

Statements like these are meant to divide, and aren't about reasonable and responsible debate on what to do about something that needs to be addressed. HT wants to turn a blind eye and let the anarchy continue.

My biggest problem is what we would do after providing this path to citizenship - we CANNOT simply continue to have an unsecured border and permit this kind of thing to go on anymore.

Far as I'm concerned, nothing more should happen until the border is sealed.  There would be an onslaught of illegals coming in if we don't seal the border first.

Perhaps we could issue guest worker visas to A bunch of these people to help build the wall so we can get it done quicker. []

If we don't get on this now, 20 or 30 years down the road, we are going to be facing a government near bankruptcy, be overrun with even more low-end jobs while higher tech flourishes overseas, and those out of touch with reality on the issue now (HT) will be spouting nonsense like: "That George Bush really ruined America by not clamping down on illegal immigrants." [B)]

[LilMikey]

HEY HOMETOWN!!!!

You use in your example the advantage of cheap labor.  Guess what?  If we make all of these criminals legal, THE CHEAP LABOR WILL DISSAPEAR!

If you get your way, you lose the very thing that you are now enjoying.

[dbacks fan]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas

I can see a lot of your points Conan, and agree with most if not all. I don't have a problem with reasoned and intellectual discussions on the issue; it's not all black and white. What infuriates me is comments from some on this forum (like HT) saying that if you're against illegal immigration you're racist, out of touch, Ozzie and Harriot throwbacks, and on and on and on. Then, the intentional inflammatory remarks to incite some kind of culture war with "you lose," "the browning of the country," and so on.

Statements like these are meant to divide, and aren't about reasonable and responsible debate on what to do about something that needs to be addressed. HT wants to turn a blind eye and let the anarchy continue.

My biggest problem is what we would do after providing this path to citizenship - we CANNOT simply continue to have an unsecured border and permit this kind of thing to go on anymore.

Far as I'm concerned, nothing more should happen until the border is sealed.  There would be an onslaught of illegals coming in if we don't seal the border first.

Perhaps we could issue guest worker visas to A bunch of these people to help build the wall so we can get it done quicker. []

If we don't get on this now, 20 or 30 years down the road, we are going to be facing a government near bankruptcy, be overrun with even more low-end jobs while higher tech flourishes overseas, and those out of touch with reality on the issue now (HT) will be spouting nonsense like: "That George Bush really ruined America by not clamping down on illegal immigrants." [B)]

You can't blame Dubya for this one. We turned a blind eye to it for years in this country, and let them come in to work the jobs we did not want to do. I can remember watching it happen when I used to go to Dallas in the 70' with my parents and then in the 80's and 90's when I would take trips there. It wasn't until the last few years that it has come to the forefront that we have a border problem and now we need to fix it. Arizona has passed laws that you are refering to in the last couple of years and there has been a backlash from the illegals about being denied instate tuition.
We need a guest worker program that works, and an immigration plan that works for those who want to come here to become citizens. As for the illegals already here, they need a path to getting citizenship if thats what they want, if not then they can be a guest worker for a period of time, and if not thatthen shown the door and told to go home.

And I really agree that we need to close the border before starting anything. Fortunattely with the tightened security on the border now we are having fewer arrests on the border and hopefully this summer won't be filled with news on how many bodies have been found in the desert so far this year.

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

quote:
Far as I'm concerned, nothing more should happen until the border is sealed.  There would be an onslaught of illegals coming in if we don't seal the border first.

Perhaps we could issue guest worker visas to A bunch of these people to help build the wall so we can get it done quicker. []

If we don't get on this now, 20 or 30 years down the road, we are going to be facing a government near bankruptcy, be overrun with even more low-end jobs while higher tech flourishes overseas, and those out of touch with reality on the issue now (HT) will be spouting nonsense like: "That George Bush really ruined America by not clamping down on illegal immigrants." [B)]

Agreed. And Lilmikey is right. That "cheap labor" that so enthralls people such as HT will no longer be cheap once these people are legal. And rightfully so; in my opinion, many of them are being exploited anyway.
Cheers,

[Double A]

Expanding Guest Worker Programâ€"a No Winner for Immigrants or the Nation

by James Parks, Apr 10, 2007

In today’s Los Angeles Times, AFL-CIO President John Sweeney and Pablo Alvarado, executive director of the National Day Laborer Organizing Network, describe how temporary worker programs will negatively impact immigrant workersâ€"and the nation.

Those programs

will assure a steady flow of cheap labor from essentially indentured workers too afraid of being deported to protest substandard wages, chiseled benefits and unsafe working conditions.

Such a system will create a disenfranchised underclass of workers. That is not only morally indefensible, it is economically nonsensical. We’ve had plenty of bad experiences with such shortsighted answers to a complicated problem.

The H-2A and H-2B visa programs bring in agricultural and other seasonal workers to pick crops, build houses and process seafood, among other jobs. Sweeney and Alvarado point out that workers in these programs typically borrow large amounts of money to pay travel expenses, fees and sometimes bribes to recruiters.

That means that before they even begin to work, they are indebted. They leave their families at home, and they are essentially “bound� to employers who can send them home on a whim and who do not have to prove a need to hire them in the first place.

A new study by the Southern Poverty Law Center, Close to Slavery: Guestworker Programs in the United States, relates that it is not unusual for a Guatemalan worker to pay more than $2,500 in fees to obtain a seasonal guest worker position, about a year’s worth of income in Guatemala. And Thai workers have been known to pay as much as $10,000 for the chance to harvest crops in the orchards of the Pacific Northwest. Interest rates on the loans are sometimes as high as 20 percent a month. Homes and vehicles are required collateral.

The workers in these programs also receive little protection, if any. In late March, legislation was introduced to enhance protections for skilled guest workers. For more information on the legislation, click here.

The solution to the immigration crisis will require a new approach, Sweeney and Alvarado say. First, everyone who is admitted to work must immediately be on a track toward permanent residency or citizenship.

Other key reforms should include:

* Employers who can prove that they tried and failed to find U.S. workers should be able to hire foreign workers, but not under abusive conditions that have a negative effect on the wages and working conditions.
* Caps on the number of employment-based visas issued each year should be set by the U.S. Department of Labor based on economic indicators that establish the needs of particular industries, not by political compromise.
* Employers should not be allowed to recruit abroad, a practice that invites bribes, exorbitant fees and potential abuse. Instead, employers should be required to hire from applications filed by workers in their home countries through a computerized job bank.
* Foreign workers should enjoy the same rights and protections as U.S. workers, including freedom to form unions and bargain for a better life.

[dbacks fan]

The solution to the immigration crisis will require a new approach, Sweeney and Alvarado say. First, everyone who is admitted to work must immediately be on a track toward permanent residency or citizenship.

Other key reforms should include:

* Employers who can prove that they tried and failed to find U.S. workers should be able to hire foreign workers, but not under abusive conditions that have a negative effect on the wages and working conditions.
* Caps on the number of employment-based visas issued each year should be set by the U.S. Department of Labor based on economic indicators that establish the needs of particular industries, not by political compromise.
* Employers should not be allowed to recruit abroad, a practice that invites bribes, exorbitant fees and potential abuse. Instead, employers should be required to hire from applications filed by workers in their home countries through a computerized job bank.
* Foreign workers should enjoy the same rights and protections as U.S. workers, including freedom to form unions and bargain for a better life.

Thank you for that info. Thats the way it should be.

[rwarn17588]

OK, everyone, here's a serious question:

Would you trade ending the war in Iraq and using the money instead to seal the Mexican border and thus get a better handle on illegal immigration and terrorism security at the border?

I'm genuinely curious to see whether this is an idea that could fly.

[inteller]

hold on a minute.....let me get this straight.  Hometown thinks these laws are wrong because it will cost us cheap labor?  That is the most supremisist and insensitive thing I've heard.

[Hometown]

MH1020 I would like to respond to you.  The legislation would require that police determine nationality of people they detain and that people that are determined to be illegal will be denied bond because they would be considered a flight risk.  Given that Oklahoma doesn't want to pay the real cost of enforcing the laws it now has on the books, how do you think your police department would be able to pay for and enforce this new mandate?  I'm not asking you to address the moral issue of separating families; I'm asking you to explain how we can pay for this ideology over reality.  

California closed the border after the passage of the last immigration reform.  It could be done tomorrow.  What happened then was that the crops were rotting in the fields and the growers raised a ruckus and people were suddenly able to enter the U.S. again.

Anyone that thinks I'm a proponent of cheap labor gets an F for reading comprehension.  It is legislation like that waiting for the governor's signature that drives people into hiding and creates an underground economy and causes a downward pressure on wages.  

We have nothing to fear from our Latin neighbors because we share a common cultural background.  Spain's Andalusia was known for its tolerance and the harmony of its different races and communities.  It saw the flowering of Jewish culture and Christians and Muslims and Jews lived together in peace.  

There is definitely a racist subtext to the anti-immigrant argument as our former chief of police pointed.  We should be proud of the diversity of our community.  It's strength.

Our immigrants give us one of the youngest populations of the Western Industrialized Nations.  Their participation has already renewed our communities.  We are indebt to the people we are demonizing.  But you'll come around, slowly.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Double A you want to have it both ways.  One day you want to present yourself as a party regular and the next day you align yourself with the Right Wing Extremists (Minute Men).  I have no doubt there are some Democrats in Oklahoma that are at the beginning of a learning curve about immigrants. But the Democrats are in a full fledged fight with the Republicans for the Latin vote.  Double A the Latin demographic is more important to our party's future than you are.  Now a good Democrat does not align themselves with right wing extremists.  I shouldn't have to tell you that.

You are a well off young White who lives in a culture tailor made for you.  You enjoy many advantages.  It is the responsibility of strong people to extend a hand of help to those who need it.  You have somehow missed out the basics of being a gentle person.

In fact, you have a deep seated grudge against Latins.  I don't know if some Latin k***** your a** or what but I do know you don't represent the mainstream of party thought.

I happen to think that rewarding criminal behavior like you advocate facilitates a black market economy that is very unhealthy for a civilized society and ultimately devastates it. I consider myself to be pro immigrant because illegal immigration is a slap in the face to legal immigrants.

quote:Double A the Latin demographic is more important to our party's future than you are.

Latin counties and cultures are the most tolerant of theocracy, corruption, and misogyny in the western hemisphere. When the Democratic party adopts resolutions supporting those things into the platform that qoute might hold water. If you like the way things are in California so much, why did you leave? Ridiculous limosine liberal elitist fascism might be the mainstream of the Democratic Party in Cali, it is not in Oklahoma. Why don't you take your $400,000 twist it up like a California roll, light it on fire, shove it up your a** and flame out all the way back to where you so obviously belong.  

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

MH1020 I would like to respond to you.  The legislation would require that police determine nationality of people they detain and that people that are determined to be illegal will be denied bond because they would be considered a flight risk.  Given that Oklahoma doesn't want to pay the real cost of enforcing the laws it now has on the books, how do you think your police department would be able to pay for and enforce this new mandate?  I'm not asking you to address the moral issue of separating families; I'm asking you to explain how we can pay for this ideology over reality.  

California closed the border after the passage of the last immigration reform.  It could be done tomorrow.  What happened then was that the crops were rotting in the fields and the growers raised a ruckus and people were suddenly able to enter the U.S. again.

Anyone that thinks I'm a proponent of cheap labor gets an F for reading comprehension.  It is legislation like that waiting for the governor's signature that drives people into hiding and creates an underground economy and causes a downward pressure on wages.  

We have nothing to fear from our Latin neighbors because we share a common cultural background.  Spain's Andalusia was known for its tolerance and the harmony of its different races and communities.  It saw the flowering of Jewish culture and Christians and Muslims and Jews lived together in peace.  

There is definitely a racist subtext to the anti-immigrant argument as our former chief of police pointed.  We should be proud of the diversity of our community.  It's strength.

Our immigrants give us one of the youngest populations of the Western Industrialized Nations.  Their participation has already renewed our communities.  We are indebt to the people we are demonizing.  But you'll come around, slowly.


The Tulsa police department does not pay to house people in jail.  Tulsa county, State of Oklahoma, or the Federal government pays to house the inmates.  Basically, it depends on what the charges are, what their status is, and where they will be going.

As far as deportation goes, I've been involved in the process several times.  Basically, when the police arrest an illegal immigrant on felony charges (the most common is a gun charge of some kind.)there are two different processes that can happen.  The immigrant could immediately be deported before the charges go to court.  So basically, they just go back to whatever country they are from.  The other type of deportation, is when the person goes thru the justice system, is found guilty and then serves their time.  Upon their release, they are then deported back to their country of origin.

Using the first process, I've seen people be transported to Oklahoma City within two days, have some kind of immigrant status hearing and then transported to Mexico in about 1 week.

The bad part of the process is there is nothing to stop them from coming back to the U.S. Many times a individual will simply change their name, cross the border and move to a different area within the U.S. That is one of the reasons it is so hard to find an illegal immigrants true name and information.  

 

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Double A you want to have it both ways.  One day you want to present yourself as a party regular and the next day you align yourself with the Right Wing Extremists (Minute Men).  I have no doubt there are some Democrats in Oklahoma that are at the beginning of a learning curve about immigrants. But the Democrats are in a full fledged fight with the Republicans for the Latin vote.  Double A the Latin demographic is more important to our party's future than you are.  Now a good Democrat does not align themselves with right wing extremists.  I shouldn't have to tell you that.

You are a well off young White who lives in a culture tailor made for you.  You enjoy many advantages.  It is the responsibility of strong people to extend a hand of help to those who need it.  You have somehow missed out the basics of being a gentle person.

In fact, you have a deep seated grudge against Latins.  I don't know if some Latin k***** your a** or what but I do know you don't represent the mainstream of party thought.

I happen to think that rewarding criminal behavior like you advocate facilitates a black market economy that is very unhealthy for a civilized society and ultimately devastates it. I consider myself to be pro immigrant because illegal immigration is a slap in the face to legal immigrants.

quote:Double A the Latin demographic is more important to our party's future than you are.

Latin counties and cultures are the most tolerant of theocracy, corruption, and misogyny in the western hemisphere. When the Democratic party adopts resolutions supporting those things into the platform that qoute might hold water. If you like the way things are in California so much, why did you leave? Ridiculous limosine liberal elitist fascism might be the mainstream of the Democratic Party in Cali, it is not in Oklahoma. Why don't you take your $400,000 twist it up like a California roll, light it on fire, shove it up your a** and flame out all the way back to where you so obviously belong.  

AA, I don't always agree with your posts, but you are a true Oklahoma Democrat, as was my father and you just gave a shining example (HT) of the fantasy-land that some Democrats have tried to create in the Democratic party.  Not only that, you make cogent points that sometimes cut to the quick of what my own beliefs are by using logic instead of resorting to hyperbole and I admire you.

This isn't a popularity contest when we come to a public forum, but an opportunity to share our opinons, and if we are really open-minded, to learn something outside the realm of our own paradigms.  

Okay, enough of the shine job [] - point is, I think within the next year we will see, with the exception of a few extremists and fear-mongers that immigration is truly a bi-partisan issue.  Let's just hope something substantive comes of it well before it gets muddled into a presidential election which is STILL more than 1 1/2 years away.  Let's keep letters and pressure on our legislators to do something now instead of allowing it to be a topical voting issue for the next 20 years while the problem escalates and we don't have any money left to even pay our legislators anymore.  I think more states passing immigration laws will send a very clear signal to Washington that the time is now to make something very real happen.

HT- Your last post directed at MH2010 is almost word-for-word from Reverand Orta's mouth.  Why don't you try really reading the text of bills which are before the governor instead of spouting off the opinions which sound fashionable to you from the evening news or The Tulsa World, the Daily Koz, or moveon.org.  

I have always had a lot of respect for Rev. Victor Orta and he raised some wonderful kids.  Two of whom I went to school with in Tulsa, while you were honing your liberal chops and  living and investing in a headonistic San Francisco lifestyle.  

My respect for him is conditional though, I respect him until he starts up with his fear-mongering that the police are going to brutalize all the hispanics in this city.  That is absolute BS, and it makes me wonder if he's really read the text of this bill either.  Since he makes a living mostly off donations from the Hispanic community, I'd say he has a vested interest in the issue.

You are nothing more than someone with an elitist mentality who either secretly made a bunch of dough and suffers from a guilt complex, or someone who is just flat pissed that they didn't have enough ambition to really make it in this life and now you choose to sit around and talk about how greedy, hate-mongering Republicans screwed up your life for you as they passed your Yugo in their Ferraris on the PCH.  

Let's see you are making crappy wages one day, yet capable of dumping $400K into our local economy in a couple of years the next.  Your lifestyle seems to change minute-by-minute to suit your point.  The only browning here seems to be the residual from what spews forth from your mouth.

Or maybe you are the typical limousine liberal who doesn't give crap to charitable organizations or individuals but think your anonymous "donations" handled by the government are enough.  Either that or paying "that Mexican boy" $20 to mow your lawn and to plant petunias is a worthy gesture.  You must assume that the government is perfectly capable of handling your anonymous donantions for the rest of your charitability.

RW- I get the point about logically where you think our funding should go, that almost makes sense to me.  Difference is, the terrorists live to the east of us, not the south.  There are multiple national security issues facing us at one time.  Taking the eye off the ball on one front to put more focus on another is dangerous, I believe they are equally important.  I know you think the war in the middle east is worthless.  IMO- Mis-managed yes, worthless, no.

If you are going to spring the point on us that one of the "guest workers" under the '86 "amnesty act" was one of the WTC '93 spear-heads, that's old news and so far as anyone knows, he never swam across the Rio Grande.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010
[brThe bad part of the process is there is nothing to stop them from coming back to the U.S. Many times a individual will simply change their name, cross the border and move to a different area within the U.S. That is one of the reasons it is so hard to find an illegal immigrants true name and information.  

[/quote]

MH- I quizzed one of my police friends over a few beers one night as to why the public feels there is apathy on the part of TPD and TCSD  officers about illegal immigration, and you summed it up much as he did.  He never said that illegals aren't adjudicated, just that officers realize that there is a better chance of keeping a violent U.S. citizen off the streets for an extended period than an illegal alien.

The quote I cited from you leads to a very critical point which has made illegal immigration so easy.  One question we didn't get down to is why aren't there sting operations against fake I.D. mills?  

Please enlighten me.  

As I see it, this is the one incentive to illegal immigrants which could be wiped out in short order with a concerted effort.  I'm sure there are some operations on the other side of the U.S. border, but there has to be a good majority on this side based on how quickly someone can come up with, or correct their documentation.

I know it would be time-consuming to bust them all as anyone with a computer can create great fakes these days.  But if you take away the I.D.'s you eliminate a large part of the means to take advantage of sneaking into the country.  Without them, a lot of honest employers wouldn't be getting swindled.  That is why I see that as being the second priority after sealing the borders.

Where I work, we face a ton of pressure right now.  Due to energy prices, consumer demand, and upgrades which keep our customers ahead of the EPA, we are busy.  We could easily do more business and employ more people in skilled, non-skilled, and sales positions.  But we toe a very fine line between facing a shortage of qualified workers which has put us behind on work (the rest of my industry is in the same boat) or wind up in deep **** with the gov't if we don't cast a critical eye on the documents someone presents us along with their I-9 form when they apply for a job.  

We might have passed on a few really good immigrant workers who could solve our problem and are here legally.  But, due to the quality of various forged ID cards these days which might provide "legal" documentation to someone who is not here legally, we'd rather pass on an anal exam from the INS.  We have passed on a few potential employees who were able to correct discrepencies in their various I.D.'s within a matter of hours or a few days (much quicker than you or I could do with fed or state documents) which is very prudent on our part.  

This is an area where people don't understand why we need better enforcement of immigration codes.  I might not be such a big proponent of enforcing immigration laws and immigration reform if I hadn't lived this every single work day for the last few years.  I really believe people who don't get this are living in ivory towers trying to make believe that we are a bunch of xenophobes and hate Mexicans because they are "different".  I personally don't give two sh!ts whether or not someone we hire was born in the U.S., Russia, Mexico, Ireland, or Katmandu as long as they came here through legal channels and will put in an honest day's work.

My company could actually be generating more in better paying jobs, corporate taxes, and payroll taxes right now if we could separate who has legitimate documentation from bogus documentation.  We don't care what country they were born in, what color they are, just as long as they have a legal right to work in our country and will do what is asked of them.