The surge is working!

[iplaw]

quote:We need a plan to pull out and we need to talk to Iran and Syria about how to do it.

[}:)] [}:)] [}:)]  I can tell you what Iran will say already, "Just leave the key under the mat, we'll take care of it for you."

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:We need a plan to pull out and we need to talk to Iran and Syria about how to do it.

[}:)] [}:)] [}:)]  I can tell you what Iran will say already, "Just leave the key under the mat, we'll take care of it for you."

You really aren't paying attention.

They already were given keys with the alarm code and we signed the deed over to them awhile back but for some reason we keep paying the mortgage.

[iplaw]

quote:
You really aren't paying attention.

They already were given keys with the alarm code and we signed the deed over to them awhile back but for some reason we keep paying the mortgage.

Yeah I know.  The day you bunch of bunch bed-wetting, spineless dopes got voted into office we should have immediately stapled a white flag to your liberal a$$ and sent you over to negotiate the terms of our surrender.

The only way that Iran can win is for you to continue being you, a spineless peacenik.

[Rico]

Swake you ever notice that they are so gung ho until it's their turn to hit the silk....

If I could just inject a small amount of sanity into this "World Changing" conversation..

quote:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Sunday said the administration did not use former CIA Director George Tenet's "slam dunk" comment as the reason to invade Iraq, disputing his complaints.

Now that I have cleared that mystery up we can continue this Republican advertisement for a new form of PTSD...

[iplaw]

quote:
If I could just inject a small amount of sanity into this "World Changing" conversation..

Yeah, you're a real balanced voice there Rico.  [|)]  What would we ever do without you?

[swake]

You want the best reason to leave?

Iran, Al Queda, Wahabinist, all the people that want to harm us really, really want us in Iraq. It's a great big recruiting video for them that we are paying for in dollars and lives.

If we leave the country will probably stabilize to a great extent. First, Al Queda has little reason to be there outside of us, they are not popular in Iraq and will likely leave. Second, while we are in Iraq Iran can beat on us at will by supplying by arms and training to insurgent Shias. There is no cost to Iran. But, what Iran does not want is a full-blown civil war right next door. If we leave they are going to have to reign in their proxies like Sadr. And if the civil war is not halted after we leave, the Shia in Iraq will be looking to Iran for assistance and protection. A civil war starts to cost Iran lives and money, instead of us. It makes our enemy weaker and destabilizes an already shaky Iranian government.

Our threatening to leave has great leverage with Iran's government. If an American pull-out isn't handled well and civil war continues then the nation most likely to pay the most is Iran and it very easily could topple Iran's government. That's why we negotiate with them, our staying has zero leverage, out leaving has great leverage. If we bring in Syria and Iran and leave on our terms with a more stable Iraq everyone wins. The current situation is everyone losing except our enemies, especially Iran.

[iplaw]

quote:You want the best reason to leave?

Goodie gumdrops; I can't wait to hear!

quote:
Iran, Al Queda, Wahabinist, all the people that want to harm us really, really want us in Iraq. It's a great big recruiting video for them that we are paying for in dollars and lives.

And I have no problem with that.  I'd rather kill them over there than have to hunt them down domestically.

To your other point, those who would rally to the side of extremist muslims will never be tolerant of the US, even if we weren't in the area.  They hate us for our views on Israel first and foremost.

I welcome the recruitment of these nutjobs.  The faster they can be recruited, the faster we can kill them.  There is no nationalism, patriotic pride nor any other noble reason why these Islamic idiots fight us.  They seek our destruction because we are the only thing between them and domination of the region and further establishment of Islamic states like Afghanistan.

To think that our exodous, or even our non-engagement initally, would have somehow prevented their radicalism is just blind ignorance, and you can look no futher than East Timor for a lesson.

quote:
If we leave the country will probably stabilize to a great extent.  First, Al Queda has little reason to be there outside of us, they are not popular in Iraq and will likely leave.

First, nice opinion, but do you have anything to back this up?  Zarqawi, and many other Taliban refugees were in Iraq before we got there.  They couldn't go back to Afghanistan, so they took the path of least resistance into Iraq.

And logically, do you want Al-Qaeda just trapsing away to take root somewhere else?  I think their presence there is reason enough to stay.  Do you not want to bring those people who perpetrated 9/11 to justice?

Or do you only use that line when you want to bash Bush for not "finishing the job" in Afghanistan?  

quote:
Second, while we are in Iraq Iran can beat on us at will by supplying by arms and training to insurgent Shias.

Not if we seal the border between Syria and between Iran, a freat which could be accomplished.  In fact, it'd be a great job for the UN.

quote:
There is no cost to Iran.

Ummm...weapons and revolutionary guard certainly aren't free items.

quote:
But, what Iran does not want is a full-blown civil war right next door.

Sure they do.  They have no reason not to want it.  Shia are in the majority, and it would be a reasonable bet that they would emerge victorious.  Iraq's vast oil reserves in exchange for arming a few insurgents...sounds like a great deal to me.

quote:
If we leave they are going to have to reign in their proxies like Sadr.

Why?

quote:
And if the civil war is not halted after we leave, the Shia in Iraq will be looking to Iran for assistance and protection.

Too late, and they are already offering both.

quote:
A civil war starts to cost Iran lives and money, instead of us. It makes our enemy weaker and destabilizes an already shaky Iranian government.

Please explain how?  A proxy Shia majority in Iraq which controls the oil output seems to me to be a sufficient enough reason for Iran to expend quite a lot of blood and expese.

quote:
If an American pull-out isn't handled well and civil war continues then the nation most likely to pay the most is Iran and it very easily could topple Iran's government.

Please explain the scenario that you are envisioning.  

quote:
If we bring in Syria and Iran and leave on our terms with a more stable Iraq everyone wins. The current situation is everyone losing except our enemies, especially Iran.

You're contradicting yourself.  You just said that the situation right now, with a civil war destablizing the region, would eventually work to topple Iran's government.  But in the next breath you say that the civil war is benefiting Iran.

So which is it?

[swake]

Seriously,

Are you really that stupid? You fail to understand that by allowing ourselves to be shown as "the great Satan" by occupying a Muslim nation is harmful? You really don't comprehend that we are contributing to a massive "radicalization" of Muslim youth around the world? The people that are being recruited are those that in different circumstances would not become radical at all. Iraq is making it more likely that we will be attacked, not less.

As for the spurious argument about "fighting us there instead of here", well, fighting Al Qaeda there does nothing to block them from fighting us here, in fact it again makes them stronger and more likely to attack here by providing a fertile recruiting environment and a more sympathetic Muslim world. We should be fighting them in Afghanistan, the surge should have been there. Iraq has always been a distraction from our unfinished work in Afghanistan.

And, I there is no real cost to Iran yet, at least nothing they admit to their own population. And whatever they are contributing today is nothing compared to what they would have to contribute to protect all the oil and all those people.

And they do enjoy a civil war there so long as we are the ones holding each side apart from one another. We are in the position of protecting a public that hates us. If we leave they will largely get stuck in our position today.

What Iran knows and what Bush never learned was some really basic principles of politics and war: The enemy of my enemy is my friend and when my enemy is weakened I am made stronger.

[rwarn17588]

More fun in the nation we're supposed to be stabilizing:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070430/ts_nm/iraq_dc

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A suicide bomber wearing a vest packed with explosives killed 32 people when he blew himself up among mourners at a Shi'ite funeral north of Baghdad on Monday, Iraqi police said. [...]

Five U.S. soldiers were killed in Iraq over the weekend, raising the number killed this month to over 100 and making April one of the deadliest of the war for U.S. forces.

Then there's this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/29/AR2007042901728.html?hpid=topnews

BAGHDAD, April 29 -- A department of the Iraqi prime minister's office is playing a leading role in the arrest and removal of senior Iraqi army and national police officers, some of whom had apparently worked too aggressively to combat violent Shiite militias, according to U.S. military officials in Baghdad.

<end clip>

So if al-Maliki determines they're doing too good of a job, they're fired.

This is insanity.

[iplaw]

quote:Seriously,

Are you really that stupid?

The same question arises every time I read your posts...

quote:
You fail to understand that by allowing ourselves to be shown as "the great Satan" by occupying a Muslim nation is harmful?

Those who would become radicalized are going to do so regardless of our intervention. If not because of our actions, because of Israel.  Again, study up on East Timor and tell me what caused the militancy against Australia.

You've confused reactionary militant Islam with nationalism, and they aren't interchangable.

Iraq is a great example. The vast majority of civilians are not fighting us, just radical elements within the sects.

I'm afraid you're the uninformed party dear swake.

quote:
You really don't comprehend that we are contributing to a massive "radicalization" of Muslim youth around the world?

Again, more of the same.  The cause of militant Islam is our resistance to it, so we should just stick a flag in the sand and tell them to take what they want.  We played that game before and it ended with 3,000 dead Americans.

quote:
The people that are being recruited are those that in different circumstances would not become radical at all. Iraq is making it more likely that we will be attacked, not less.

Complete bullsh!t!  Unless you're willing to concede that there is no such thing as moderate Islam, and that they are all just waiting for a chance to become radicalized...

There are no pretenses of nationalism that drive the violence in Iraq.

THE IRAQI PEOPLE ARE NOT FIGHTIING US.

quote:
As for the spurious argument about "fighting us there instead of here", well, fighting Al Qaeda there does nothing to block them from fighting us here in fact it again makes them stronger and more likely to attack here by providing a fertile recruiting environment and a more sympathetic Muslim world.

Recycled.  Re-read above.

quote:
We should be fighting them in Afghanistan, the surge should have been there. Iraq has always been a distraction from our unfinished work in Afghanistan.

More bullsh!t.  We accomplished the goal in Afghanistan of removing the Taliban from power.  Resurgency was always a possibility, but NATO is there to deal with it.

Afghanistan is a NATO responsibility now, and they have a soverign government in place.  They need a robust economy and strong military, neither of which the US armed forces can provide.

The bottom line is, compared to Afghanistan, Iraq is the focal point and the locus of Al-Qaeda operations.  Walking away just makes you a hypocrite for even discussing Afghanistan.

We "abandoned" our obligations in Afghanistan by not eliminating the Taliban (which is rediculous to assume we could do), and you want to do the exact same in Iraq?  

quote:
And, I there is no real cost to Iran yet, at least nothing they admit to their own population. And whatever they are contributing today is nothing compared to what they would have to contribute to protect all the oil and all those people.

Does your hand smell?  You had to dig pretty far up to grab that didn't you?

quote:
If we leave they will largely get stuck in our position today.

I suppose that's okay with you?

quote:
What Iran knows and what Bush never learned was some really basic principles of politics and war: The enemy of my enemy is my friend and when my enemy is weakened I am made stronger.

That line of retarded thinking is what put Saddam Hussein in power and allowed him to slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocent people.  The enemy of my enemy is just that, another enemy.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by swake

Seriously,

Are you really that stupid? You fail to understand that by allowing ourselves to be shown as "the great Satan" by occupying a Muslim nation is harmful? You really don't comprehend that we are contributing to a massive "radicalization" of Muslim youth around the world? The people that are being recruited are those that in different circumstances would not become radical at all. Iraq is making it more likely that we will be attacked, not less.

As for the spurious argument about "fighting us there instead of here", well, fighting Al Qaeda there does nothing to block them from fighting us here, in fact it again makes them stronger and more likely to attack here by providing a fertile recruiting environment and a more sympathetic Muslim world. We should be fighting them in Afghanistan, the surge should have been there. Iraq has always been a distraction from our unfinished work in Afghanistan.

And, I there is no real cost to Iran yet, at least nothing they admit to their own population. And whatever they are contributing today is nothing compared to what they would have to contribute to protect all the oil and all those people.

And they do enjoy a civil war there so long as we are the ones holding each side apart from one another. We are in the position of protecting a public that hates us. If we leave they will largely get stuck in our position today.

What Iran knows and what Bush never learned was some really basic principles of politics and war: The enemy of my enemy is my friend and when my enemy is weakened I am made stronger.

Really Swake?  We were referred to as the "Great Satan" long before we occupied Iraq.  The first time I remember hearing that was not long after Khomeini took power in Iran.  I fail to see that the occupation of Iraq has given any more rise to anti-American sentiment amongst terrorist nut-jobs than there ever has been.  They have been trying to bait us into a war for decades.

How spurrious is it that there has not been ONE SINGLE Al-Qaeda attack within the United States in over five years?  The only attacks within our borders are coming from liberal Al-Qaeda sympathisers.

If we were to pull out prematurely, and attacks start up over here, I'm sure it would all become Bush's fault "if we hadn't have gone in there in the first place".

[swake]

So a radical Muslim is born, not made huh? Can we find that gene?

Your path of thinking is what got us into this mess. Blind ideology with no regard to world events, history, facts on the ground or even any understanding of human nature. Your kind said we would be welcomed with open arms and loved for getting rid of a tyrant, said the mission was accomplished and said many, many times that the insurgency was about done and that we are "making progress".

Your point of view has been proven wrong so many times in this conflict  it's mind-boggling that you still hold so true to the Bush party line.

And, if we have finished the job in Afghanistan so well, just which prison are Omar and Bin Laden in awaiting trial?

The best line and most ridiculous is that there are no Iraqis killing Americans. Good stuff. Keep it coming.

[iplaw]

quote:So a radical Muslim is born, not made huh? Can we find that gene?

That's the wrong question.

Please explain for me what policy of the US started the Barbary Wars?  What policy of Australia's warranted the attack of its civilians for encouraging the freedom of East Timor from Indonesia?  What policy of the innocent Hindus in India prompted OBL to create Al-Qaeda expressly for the extermination of Hindus?  What policy of the Christians in Darfur caused their mass genocide at the hands of Islamic nutjobs?

Pretending that OUR actions have created these forces of reaction is just laughable.

quote:
Your path of thinking is what got us into this mess. Blind ideology with no regard to world events, history, facts on the ground or even any understanding of human nature.

Hello Kettle.

quote:
Your kind said we would be welcomed with open arms and loved for getting rid of a tyrant, said the mission was accomplished and said many, many times that the insurgency was about done and that we are "making progress".

And you're lying for saying it didn't happen.  

"No. I was there. I saw it myself. American soldiers and British soldiers were greeted by hundreds of thousands of people with real joy. I saw it myself. I can't believe people say it didn't happen." -- Christopher Hitchens

The ensuing sectarian violence is a separate issue, and Hitchen's quote reinforces my assertion that the Iraqi people are NOT FIGHTING us and have never been interested in fighting us.

quote:
Your point of view has been proven wrong so many times in this conflict  it's mind-boggling that you still hold so true to the Bush party line.

What POV are you even speaking of?  Talk in generalities much?

quote:
And, if we have finished the job in Afghanistan so well, just which prison are Omar and Bin Laden in awaiting trial?

I didn't realize that was our mark of completion.  Seems like nothing more than a cop-out for you.  If we had captured OBL you'd be *****ing because of the poppies, or because it's too hot there, or too sandy.

Afghanistan is a NATO responsibility now, and it's rightly in the hands of the intl' community.

quote:
The best line and most ridiculous is that there are no Iraqis killing Americans. Good stuff. Keep it coming.

Militant radicals are killing US soldiers, not civilians.  The vast majority of Iraqi citizens are just scared to death and want a normal life.

If the Iraqi people were the ones killing our soldiers we'd have far more deaths than we're seeing.

Does your brain only work on slow and stop?

[rwarn17588]

quote:
   The best line and most ridiculous is that there are no Iraqis killing Americans. Good stuff. Keep it coming.

Militant radicals are killing US soldiers, not civilians. The vast majority of Iraqi citizens are just scared to death and want a normal life.

If the Iraqi people were the ones killing our soldiers we'd have far more deaths than we're seeing.

<end clip>

So I guess the militant radicals aren't Iraqi people? I didn't know they had renounced their citizenship.

Keep stepping in it, iplaw. [}:)]

[iplaw]

quote:So I guess the militant radicals aren't Iraqi people? I didn't know they had renounced their citizenship.

Keep stepping in it, iplaw. [}:)]

You can't possibly be this dense, well, yes you can, and you are.

Who are the foregin fighters in Iraq?

More foreign fighters entering Iraq.

US nabs foreign fighters in Iraq

Syria controlling the flow of foreign fighters into Iraq.

Insurgents, by all accounts, comprise 50,000 fighters both Sunni and Shia.  The population of Baghdad is roughly 5.5 million people, which translates to about .009% of the population.

Keep telling yourself the Iraqi people are fighting us...