The surge is working!

[iplaw]

quote:In an recent ABC poll of Iraqis, 78% want us out. Over half support attacks on US troops.

President Jalal Talabani said coalition troops should remain in the country until Iraqi security forces are "capable of putting an end to terrorism and maintaining stability and security."

The Iraqi people are caught between a rock and a hard place on this one.  WE abandoned them after GWI and let Saddam murder 50,000 Shia in the south.  They are inherently distrusting of the US, in that they have been burned before.

These people get fed nonsense from local clerics, and people like Sadr on a daily basis, so your implicit assumption that they think they are somehow better able to control the siutation once we are gone is a foolish.  They regurgitate the nonsense they are fed.

The thugs who want control of that country want us out, and for good reason.

quote:
The American people want us out, the Iraqi people want us out. We've already installed a government this is at least very friendly to Iran and at worst is just a puppet of Iran.

Oh, we "installed" them...funny, I remember them being voted in...

quote:
The damage is already done. We broke the egg and can't put it back together again. Saddam was valuable to us as a counter weight to Iran even as he was our enemy.

What counter weight.  He didn't have WMDs remember, and his army was a joke?

And how revolting that you would allow the people of Iraq to be kept under the thumb of a madman just so you can keep Iran at a distance.  The man gassed thousands of innocent people, murdered hundreds of thousands, funding and protecting terrorists, and was still amassing banned weapons, and you're willing to let him continue just to keep Iran in check, which he wasn't able to do anymore... Simply disgusting.

quote:
And being in Iraq only serves to make the shaky Iranian government stronger by scaring the Iranian population and playing into the conservatives hands there.

Nice opinion, but do you have anything to back this up?  Even with the invasion, the young people are still pro-American, so I don't see where you're getting this.

quote:
If we had not invaded Iraq it is likely that the hardliners would no longer be in control in Iran.

Do you have ANYTHING to back this up?  Please don't bother linking to the Dailykos or Olbermann.

[Hawkins]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Do you mind a Taliban-like power taking over Iraq?

The fact that they--a Taliban-like power--could take over Iraq just goes to show how completely ignorant, backward, helpless the region is. There's nothing we can do for them.

We are there to secure oil, and to try and prop up a democratic government that will provide less uncertaintity in the oil markets.

It isn't working.

If we leave, then yes, things will get worse over there. But if we stay, we simply continue to bleed money and lives.

I don't have all the answers, but I wish we could get out, but I know there is a bigger picture here concerning energy reserves.

[rwarn17588]

Iplaw translation: "The current policy is a failure, but I want to keep doing it anyway."

With advice like that, who needs enemies?

Sheesh.

[iplaw]

quote:
The fact that they--a Taliban-like power--could take over Iraq just goes to show how completely ignorant, backward, helpless the region is. There's nothing we can do for them.

Then how do you explain the Kurdish people?  They seemed to create a working democracy even in the midst of the Saddam regime.  They have religious elements within their ranks, yet they've figured it out somehow.

quote:
We are there to secure oil, and to try and prop up a democratic government that will provide less uncertaintity in the oil markets.

This certainly is not the main reason, but nontheless as strong corollary reason.  Do you think it's not a justifiable reason?

If we leave, then yes, things will get worse over there. But if we stay, we simply continue to bleed money and lives.

I don't have all the answers, but I wish we could get out, but I know there is a bigger picture here concerning energy reserves.

Well, those are two distinct issues, and both are important.  Pulling out seems to be the most reprehensible choice given the outcome that is certain, and that you even acknowledge.

Just because it's easy or good for the pocket book doesn't make it right, in fact, it makes it quite selfish.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Iplaw translation: "The current policy is a failure, but I want to keep doing it anyway."

With advice like that, who needs enemies?

Sheesh.

Reading comprehension not your bag?  You're right, that's just what I said.  Nice drive-by bomb.  Typical.

[rwarn17588]

Iplaw, you've pretty much shown that you're a zombie to the failure that is the current administration and, because of that, you have no credibility.

Time to stop being in denial.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Iplaw, you've pretty much shown that you're a zombie to the failure that is the current administration and, because of that, you have no credibility.

Time to stop being in denial.

So says the bomb thrower who doesn't engage in debate...Time for you to stop towing the moveon.org and Cindy Sheehan propaganda line.  

B-b-b-b-but...saddam didn't have anything to do with 9/11...but....but...but.  No war for oil, free Tibet.

[rwarn17588]

I've never said anything about war for oil. I can't even remember the last time I've been on moveon.org. I don't care about Cindy Sheehan.

Don't lie about me.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

I've never said anything about war for oil. I can't even remember the last time I've been on moveon.org. I don't care about Cindy Sheehan.

Don't lie about me.

Oh come on.  I know you want some of that anti-war, hate-bush action...[]

And whether you realize it or not you parrot them as if you were getting the dailykos delivered to your email daily...

[cannon_fodder]

I expected a real discussion, and I get news clippings of bad things happening in Iraq?

33 people in Virginia a few days ago.  I suppose we should stop funding their police.

Such examples are worthless.  If you want to [complain], try to come up with a better way of doing things.

[edit]removed female dog[\edit]

[rwarn17588]

That's a onetime thing in VT. That kind of crap happens in Iraq EVERY DANGED DAY and then some.

[cannon_fodder]

Yes, I understand that. I did not argue that the current situation is a peach in Iraq.  I simply said that anecdotal posting of random events do not clarify the situation.  Are these events worse and more frequent than before?  Is life worse for the average Iraqi?  Have the asshats had to chose softer targets?  Is the violence moving to areas not covered by the plan?  Is there a plan anticipating whatever is happening and a way to solve it?

No important question is answered by such stories.  Think of the headline on any given day in WWII:  American Soldiers Die Again Today.  It could have been the day we crossed the Rhine or won Iwo.  Who knows.  The story by itself, while true, does not necessarily give the big picture.  And the big picture is usually more important than a single event.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

That's a onetime thing in VT. That kind of crap happens in Iraq EVERY DANGED DAY and then some.

Any car bombs gone off here in the states the last four or five years?  Thank a soldier for that and your president for there being soldiers making sure it doesn't happen in the future.

[shadows]

Would you say we will ever be able to walk down the streets of Iraq when our solders kill the 14 year old girls family, raped her, then killed her.

Punishment would never be justified in the Iraqis eyes.  

We have entered into a holy civil war that  has gone on for centuries and the longer we remain there the more hatred they will have for us.  They are intelligent people who have only one thing in mind.   "Kill the infidels"   It is time to leave as the policing of their country should have never happened by us.    

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by shadows

Would you say we will ever be able to walk down the streets of Iraq when our solders kill the 14 year old girls family, raped her, then killed her.

Punishment would never be justified in the Iraqis eyes.  

We have entered into a holy civil war that  has gone on for centuries and the longer we remain there the more hatred they will have for us.  They are intelligent people who have only one thing in mind.   "Kill the infidels"   It is time to leave as the policing of their country should have never happened by us.    

Per usual, I can't tell what the hell you're saying.