The surge is working!

[rwarn17588]

I didn't say anything about DailyKos, iplaw. Check with the post. Don't lie again.

I also read Batesline and Andrew Sullivan, which aren't exactly what you would call liberal blogs.

[iplaw]

quote:You can fight al-Qaida with quick-strike attacks, plus Iraqis in general don't like al-Qaida very much. Most of the violence in Iraq is sectarian, not terrorist.

What brand of crack are you smoking.  Al-Qaeda IS the SUNNI part of the sectarian violence happening right now.

quote:
Besides, starting a war that didn't have anything to do with 9/11 *helped* al-Qaida at a time when it was reeling.

Really?  By attacking a country that was giving safe harbor to Al-Qaeda fugitives.

[iplaw]

What the hell is this then:

quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588

That's not all:

Good friends of ours have a son who is seving in Iraq. Fortunately, he is okay so far and will be coming home in a few months. Through the miracle of modern communications he talks to his parents a couple of times a week. Here is what his parents say their son and other soldiers think about the extension of tours of duty recently foisted upon them by the Bush Administration.

"No one knows why we are here, we're not doing any good."

"How can we win when the Iraqi people don't seem to care."

and my favorite,
"We are ready to lynch Republicans."

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/4/24/83414/5303

[rwarn17588]

You mentioned DailyKos after I already responded to something else. I didn't mention it, not did I deny it. You're making it sound like I denied it.

Stop lying.

[iplaw]

Stop embarassing yourself by linking to the dailykos.  I didn't make you link to that, nor did I make you read it and think it worth posting.

[rwarn17588]

I'm not embarrassed by it. It's a good story.

I'd be a lot more embarrassed, frankly, by continually defending a disastrous foreign policy.

People in this country dislike the war by a wide margin. You're the one who's out of touch.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

I'm not embarrassed by it. It's a good story.

I'd be a lot more embarrassed, frankly, by continually defending a disastrous foreign policy.

People in this country dislike the war by a wide margin. You're the one who's out of touch.

Keep quoting the dailykos and keep embarassing yourself.  Linking to loony-left propaganda sites will get you no credibility with anyone.

Now if you'd like to continue discussing the topic at hand, please carry on.  If not, stop flaming and move on.

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Stop embarassing yourself by linking to the dailykos.  I didn't make you link to that, nor did I make you read it and think it worth posting.

so types the man that demands sources, yet provides none of his own.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Stop embarassing yourself by linking to the dailykos.  I didn't make you link to that, nor did I make you read it and think it worth posting.

so types the man that demands sources, yet provides none of his own.

What would you like a source on?  I'll be more than happy to provide a source for anything you want.

[okiebybirth]

quote:

quote:Originally posted by guido11The Surge is [Not] Working?

Tell that to this soldier:

http://drudgereport.com/flash1.htm

Let's not take his word for it though. I think we need more opinions from back seat drivers on foreign policy and military affairs.

Originally posted by iplaw

More to the point, I could post 10 links to stories of soldiers that would disagree with this guy.  So what?  Does that prove anything?  Not damn thing.  It simply shows that soldiers, like everyone else, have opinions.  They are NOT machines that operate in the world of automata.

You need to give that information to guido... That guy posts more messages from soldiers trying to goad people on here more than anyone else.

[iplaw]

Yeah, you're right.  The "I can find a soldier" pissing contest needs to stop...

[grahambino]

quote:The Kurds aren't interested in that; they've stated as much already. The current president of Iraq is Talabani, a Kurd, said he's not interested in an independent Kurdistan any longer.

So, the question is, are you prepared to have another Taliban type regime in charge of a major ME country? More oil resources than they could ever have imagined in Afghanistan...and the only way to keep that oil away from the militant freaks is to have a secularized democracy in that country.

Do you mind a Taliban-like power taking over Iraq?

fallacious argument.

quote:Thanks for the primer on islamic sectarianism. Maybe I should have underlined the word Taliban-like. Personally I don't care for either flavor. What makes you think the Sunni brand of islam, which by the way is what has been in power for the last 40 years, is somehow unpopular in Iraq? I think Saudi Arabia would disagree with you...

The Shia majority ran by Sadr would be as friendly, if not more so, to terrorist elements in the region as Saddam was. A balance of power is the only viable solution for long-term stability.

The only way to guarantee a balance of power NEVER exists is to withdraw.

So since you've acknowledged that, are you're willing to let them take it? I can assure you that any regime ran by Iran will be as equally detestable as any Taliban regime ever was...

see above.

quote:
President Jalal Talabani said coalition troops should remain in the country until Iraqi security forces are "capable of putting an end to terrorism and maintaining stability and security."

The Iraqi people are caught between a rock and a hard place on this one. WE abandoned them after GWI and let Saddam murder 50,000 Shia in the south. They are inherently distrusting of the US, in that they have been burned before.

These people get fed nonsense from local clerics, and people like Sadr on a daily basis, so your implicit assumption that they think they are somehow better able to control the siutation once we are gone is a foolish. They regurgitate the nonsense they are fed.

The thugs who want control of that country want us out, and for good reason.

Oh, we "installed" them...funny, I remember them being voted in...

What counter weight. He didn't have WMDs remember, and his army was a joke?

And how revolting that you would allow the people of Iraq to be kept under the thumb of a madman just so you can keep Iran at a distance. The man gassed thousands of innocent people, murdered hundreds of thousands, funding and protecting terrorists, and was still amassing banned weapons, and you're willing to let him continue just to keep Iran in check, which he wasn't able to do anymore... Simply disgusting.

Nice opinion, but do you have anything to back this up? Even with the invasion, the young people are still pro-American, so I don't see where you're getting this.

Do you have ANYTHING to back this up? Please don't bother linking to the Dailykos or Olbermann.

yet more fallacious arguments.  providing sources for the quotes in bold, please.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

That's not all:

Good friends of ours have a son who is seving in Iraq.  Fortunately, he is okay so far and will be coming home in a few months.  Through the miracle of modern communications he talks to his parents a couple of times a week.  Here is what his parents say their son and other soldiers think about the extension of tours of duty recently foisted upon them by the Bush Administration.

"No one knows why we are here, we're not doing any good."

"How can we win when the Iraqi people don't seem to care."

and my favorite,
"We are ready to lynch Republicans."

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/4/24/83414/5303

Oh, for a second there, I thought you were posting a first-hand anecdote about the war, not something made up by a blogger named "angry democrat."

Sorry to dog you, but it's just not very compelling.

[cannon_fodder]

I believe this is going nowhere.  I have cousins, friends, and classmates that are, were and will be in Afghanistan/Iraqi theaters.  I'm proud to say that.  

I'm also proud that they all have various opinions on the war.  Every person who has served that I have talked to has made one point:  things are not going well, but they are going better than the media portrays it.  Schools are being built, roads repaired, and power plants reopened.   After 2 months of good days some asshat comes along and blows up all the progress and a few people while he is at it.

I am well acquainted with the soldiers perspective, from personal accounts of people I have known for years, people I barely know, and stories I have read like the ones you posted.  All together they give many different accounts and insights in to the goings on. However, those that have served more than one tour will tell you parts of Baghdad are like being in Compton in a bad movie while Kurdistan "is almost civilized."  Different tours, different soldiers, and different season all bring different experiences.  Any one, or any one side, fails to present the entire picture.

Google Fight says there is nearly twice as much good news as bad.

None of that means anything.  In spite of my repeated pleas no one has provided a viable alternative or even their views on it.  You just keep posting link after link.  Dont make IP spam stories from:
http://www.goodnewsiraq.com/index2.htm
or
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/11/02/the_good_news_from_iraq_is_not_fit_to_print/

Everyone knows bad things happen in Iraq.  We know that.  No one is arguing that point.  We want to know how to STOP those things from happening or if you think it isnt worth stopping.

[iplaw]

quote:
fallacious argument.

You know. You don't get any points for saying "fallacious argument," you actually have to explain WHY it's fallacious.

quote:
see above.

I suggest you do the same.





I will address each point with original source material:

What makes you think the Sunni brand of islam, which by the way is what has been in power for the last 40 years, is somehow unpopular in Iraq? I think Saudi Arabia would disagree with you...

I really don't know what your concern with this quote is.  The Baath party is, and has always been Sunni.

But a key feature should be to split up the Sunni Arab insurgency. This insurgency is already deeply divided between secular (nationalist, Baathist) and religious elements and--within the latter--between Islamists focused on Iraq and hardcore utopian revolutionaries (Salafists like Al Qaeda) who see a U.S. defeat in Iraq as the first step in a global jihadist war. -- Larry Diamond

The Shia majority ran by Sadr would be as friendly, if not more so, to terrorist elements in the region as Saddam was.

Again, what is it you object to?  The Shia majority is clearly run by Al-Sadr.  Al-Sadr is a mouthpiece of the Iranian regime.

An Iraqi Muslim cleric who leads a major Shiite militia pledged to come to the defense of neighboring Iran if it were attacked, aides to the cleric, Moqtada Sadr, said Monday.

The commitment, made Sunday in Tehran during a visit by Sadr, came in response to a senior Iranian official's query about what the cleric would do in the event of an attack on Iran. It marked the first open indication that Iraq's Shiite neighbor is preparing for a military response if attacked in a showdown with the West over its nuclear program.-- Washington Post

Or is it that you think Sadr would not be friendly to terrorists?  This would deny that he's actually supported by terrorist regimes which is utter nonsense.

Sheik Muqtada al-Sadr, the fiery Iraqi Shi'ite cleric who ordered his fanatical militia to attack coalition troops, is being supported by Iran and its terror surrogate Hezbollah, according to military sources with access to recent intelligence reports. -- Washington Times

The only way to guarantee a balance of power NEVER exists is to withdraw.

This one is personal opinion, but I've yet have anyone explain how that outcome is anything but certainty.  Would you like to give it a shot?

By default, in a civil war, sectarian violence situation, what have you, there can be only ONE winner.  That's common sense, and ONE winner != a balance of power.

I can assure you that any regime ran by Iran will be as equally detestable as any Taliban regime ever was...

Please.  You're not actually this dumb are you, to think that Iran is somehow a magical place where it's sunshine and gumdrops for all??

Respect for basic human rights in Iran, especially freedom of expression and assembly, deteriorated in 2006. The government routinely tortures and mistreats detained dissidents, including through prolonged solitary confinement. The Judiciary, which is accountable to Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, is responsible for many serious human rights violations.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's cabinet is dominated by former intelligence and security officials, some of whom have been implicated in serious human rights violations, such as the assassination of dissident intellectuals. Under his administration, the Ministry of Information, which essentially performs intelligence functions, has substantially increased its surveillance of dissidents, civil society activists, and journalists.  

Iranian authorities systematically suppress freedom of expression and opinion by closing newspapers and imprisoning journalists and editors. The few independent dailies that remain heavily self-censor. Many writers and intellectuals have left the country, are in prison, or have ceased to be critical.

The Ahmadinejad government, in a pronounced shift from the policy under former president Mohammed Khatami, has shown no tolerance for peaceful protests and gatherings. -- Human Rights Watch

the young people are still pro-American

Iranian officials are worried. Worried of the American presence next to their doors, on the East as well as to the West, worried of the invasion of Iraq "with so little popular resistance", worried of the fast fall of the Baghdad regime, worried of the sidelining of the UN, worried of the total disillusion of the Iranian people that, since the beginning of the Iraqi crisis, has resulted in a fierce pro-Americanism of the population... but, especially, worried of the vox populi, that asks for "a change of the regime with the help of the American marines", the daily "Le Monde" wrote. -- Iran Press Service





Any other brain busters?