Tulsa FOP never satisfied

[RecycleMichael]

Wilbur...

How can you get so many facts wrong?

First, there are other unions besides the FOP...Have you ever heard of AFSCME?  They do a good job of bargaining without trying to attack the Mayor.

Secondly, the majority of city employees (including public works and fire) got 7% and the police got 8%. The Parks department got a bunch of pink slips.

I have never heard the mayor say she was the Public Safety Mayor..show me where.

Then for you to say "she has not done one thing since she has been in office to promote public safety..." is wrong. Why do you think that you get all the credit for a lower crime rate under her watch and none of the blame?

We all want lower crime...not just the police department. Quit acting as if you are the only ones who care.

I think the Mayor has made public safety a big priority in her proposed budget. But you don't see it that way. You just want to whine that you don't get more money and more bodies. Believe me, every department head in the city would love to get the priority that the police got in this budget.

I expected you to just do the same as you always do...run to the media and act as if the mayor doesn't care...frankly, that whine is getting a little stale.

[Wilbur]

We just need to agree to disagree.  I don't have the stamina to go through all this again and again.

I'll admit my bias towards the police and you can admit your bias towards the mayor.

When the mayor puts the money where her mouth is towards all employees, we can all be happy.

We'll fight some more at the next lunch!

[RecycleMichael]

I'll buy, Wilbur.

I think this is the only issue that we really disagree.

You should come to the next lunch. They have been very fun and imformative.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I'll buy, Wilbur.

I think this is the only issue that we really disagree.

You should come to the next lunch. They have been very fun and imformative.

Wanted to make the last one but was in OKC all day.

[sgrizzle]

The police got a very steep raise in the past year. It has lowered the attrition rate and got the officers closer to where they should be. 98% of the population believes themselves to be underpaid. The FOP seems to be trying to squeeze water out of a rock. They got a raise at the cost of other people's jobs and they seem to care little to none about where the money comes from. They also seem more concerned about raises than increasing staffing, which is more for the good of the city than an extra couple of thousand in an officer's pockets.

Plus "the officers pay the FOP" line doesn't work on me. The citizens fund a bank account, that account pays you to pay the FOP. For the city workers who don't unionize, good for them. Firing a union is an automatic pay raise.

Unions had their time, the whole idea is that by organizing is the only way to protect you from an evil employer out to treat you unfairly. It assumes the Mayor is "the bad guy" no matter who the mayor is or what they do. That time is over. Unions at this point are putting more drain on the company and it's employees than benefit.

For example, at every job you get penalized for coming in late. However, the cingular call center (the only unionized call center in tulsa to my knowledge) the union said that if being late is punishable, then they won't allow anyone to be early either. The result is that you will be penalized for signing in 1 minute before OR after your scheduled time. If a call runs into your lunch hour, say by 15 minutes, then you've just lost 15 minutes of lunch. You don't get to come back 15 minutes later. Plus, you get in trouble for taking a short lunch.

Unions have gotten ridiculous.

[Wilbur]

quote: The police got a very steep raise in the past year. It has lowered the attrition rate and got the officers closer to where they should be. 98% of the population believes themselves to be underpaid. The FOP seems to be trying to squeeze water out of a rock. They got a raise at the cost of other people's jobs and they seem to care little to none about where the money comes from. They also seem more concerned about raises than increasing staffing, which is more for the good of the city than an extra couple of thousand in an officer's pockets.  

ALL city employees got pay raises in the same area of 8% this year, not just police.  Attrition has dropped, but mostly because of a decrease in retirements, not officers leaving for higher paying jobs (we're getting ready to lose a couple soon to the feds).  And to say police got 'closer to where they should be' is only slightly true.  We went from last place in the pay survey to last place in the pay survey.  While Tulsa officers got 10% over two years (that's an average of 5% a year), the other cities also got pay raises, so our movement didn't really result in anything.  The only time Tulsa will move up the list is when we get raises and other cities don't (that rarely happens) or when the city makes a commitment to steady pay increases over a several years.  If you want your police force to be paid at the bottom of the pay scale yet require college education at the top of the scale, call your city counselor.  I pray we never turn into a Miami of the 70's, a Houston of the 80's, or a New Orleans of the 90's.   And there is nothing wrong with a union fighting to get both pay raises AND increased staffing, both of which are drastically needed at Tulsa PD.

quote: Plus "the officers pay the FOP" line doesn't work on me. The citizens fund a bank account, that account pays you to pay the FOP.

Bologna!  Then the taxes I ultimately pay myself is really a pay decrease.  Without officers funding a union, there would be no union.  There is no account within the city's budget directed towards union dues.  And there is nothing that requires an officer to join the union, although he/she still benefits from the action of the union.

quote: Unions had their time, the whole idea is that by organizing is the only way to protect you from an evil employer out to treat you unfairly. It assumes the Mayor is "the bad guy" no matter who the mayor is or what they do.

Bologna again!  You should sit at the negotiations table since Mayor Savage.  The City always comes to the table talking about pay cuts in the double digits, taking away benefits, ....  Each side ends up spending a ridiculous amount of money to ultimately decide on very little.  There were times in the past when negotiations were fairly short and we always had a contract in place by the time July 1 came around.  That hasn't happened in a long time.

[pfox]

quote: ALL city employees got pay raises in the same area of 8% this year, not just police.  Attrition has dropped, but mostly because of a decrease in retirements, not officers leaving for higher paying jobs (we're getting ready to lose a couple soon to the feds).  And to say police got 'closer to where they should be' is only slightly true.  We went from last place in the pay survey to last place in the pay survey.  While Tulsa officers got 10% over two years (that's an average of 5% a year), the other cities also got pay raises, so our movement didn't really result in anything.  The only time Tulsa will move up the list is when we get raises and other cities don't (that rarely happens) or when the city makes a commitment to steady pay increases over a several years.  If you want your police force to be paid at the bottom of the pay scale yet require college education at the top of the scale, call your city counselor.  I pray we never turn into a Miami of the 70's, a Houston of the 80's, or a New Orleans of the 90's.   And there is nothing wrong with a union fighting to get both pay raises AND increased staffing, both of which are drastically needed at Tulsa PD.

You know...that sounds an awful lot like extortion to me.

Guess what? We average workers at the city and city funded agencies are ALL underpaid. Guess what? I still do my job to the best of my ability.  Would I like more? Yes? Do other communities pay urban planners with master's degrees more than they do here? Absolutely. Do I tell the city, "well I am afraid of what might happen to our transportation systems if I don't get paid more"? No, I don't.  

It's one thing to ask for a raise. It's another to make veiled threats when you don't get exactly what you want.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by pfox

quote: ALL city employees got pay raises in the same area of 8% this year, not just police.  Attrition has dropped, but mostly because of a decrease in retirements, not officers leaving for higher paying jobs (we're getting ready to lose a couple soon to the feds).  And to say police got 'closer to where they should be' is only slightly true.  We went from last place in the pay survey to last place in the pay survey.  While Tulsa officers got 10% over two years (that's an average of 5% a year), the other cities also got pay raises, so our movement didn't really result in anything.  The only time Tulsa will move up the list is when we get raises and other cities don't (that rarely happens) or when the city makes a commitment to steady pay increases over a several years.  If you want your police force to be paid at the bottom of the pay scale yet require college education at the top of the scale, call your city counselor.  I pray we never turn into a Miami of the 70's, a Houston of the 80's, or a New Orleans of the 90's.   And there is nothing wrong with a union fighting to get both pay raises AND increased staffing, both of which are drastically needed at Tulsa PD.

You know...that sounds an awful lot like extortion to me.

Guess what? We average workers at the city and city funded agencies are ALL underpaid. Guess what? I still do my job to the best of my ability.  Would I like more? Yes? Do other communities pay urban planners with master's degrees more than they do here? Absolutely. Do I tell the city, "well I am afraid of what might happen to our transportation systems if I don't get paid more"? No, I don't.  

It's one thing to ask for a raise. It's another to make veiled threats when you don't get exactly what you want.

Well, easy your mind. It's not extortion.

Wilber is just stating that the correlation between low pay, low educational requirements and corruption has been well documented.  The cities of Miami, Houston, and New Orleans all chose to pay their police officers a low wage. As a result, the applicant pool was poor, officer retention was low and corruption rose dramatically.

Hopefully this won't happen in Tulsa.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by pfox

quote: ALL city employees got pay raises in the same area of 8% this year, not just police.  Attrition has dropped, but mostly because of a decrease in retirements, not officers leaving for higher paying jobs (we're getting ready to lose a couple soon to the feds).  And to say police got 'closer to where they should be' is only slightly true.  We went from last place in the pay survey to last place in the pay survey.  While Tulsa officers got 10% over two years (that's an average of 5% a year), the other cities also got pay raises, so our movement didn't really result in anything.  The only time Tulsa will move up the list is when we get raises and other cities don't (that rarely happens) or when the city makes a commitment to steady pay increases over a several years.  If you want your police force to be paid at the bottom of the pay scale yet require college education at the top of the scale, call your city counselor.  I pray we never turn into a Miami of the 70's, a Houston of the 80's, or a New Orleans of the 90's.   And there is nothing wrong with a union fighting to get both pay raises AND increased staffing, both of which are drastically needed at Tulsa PD.

You know...that sounds an awful lot like extortion to me.

Guess what? We average workers at the city and city funded agencies are ALL underpaid. Guess what? I still do my job to the best of my ability.  Would I like more? Yes? Do other communities pay urban planners with master's degrees more than they do here? Absolutely. Do I tell the city, "well I am afraid of what might happen to our transportation systems if I don't get paid more"? No, I don't.  

It's one thing to ask for a raise. It's another to make veiled threats when you don't get exactly what you want.

We can all hope you aren't in the law enforcement business if you somehow construe that as extortion.  I said I pray that doesn't happen here.  This is extortion to you?

If you would check several of my prior posts, I have always agreed ALL city employees deserve to be paid at least average, not just police.  And I work my butt off too.

The City has already lowered the standards used for psychological testing results for police applicants because not enough qualified applicants were applying.  What standards do we lower next?

My point being, Miami, Houston and New Orleans started lowering standards and their pay went into the toilet.  As a result, corruption became rampant.  I pray that doesn't happen here.


Are we still on topic?

[RecycleMichael]

I agree that police officer pay has a way of attracting better candidates and retaining them.
Tulsa pays a fair wage in my opinion. For comparison purposes...

New Orleans policeman pay upon graduation from the academy $38,608

Miami policeman pay upon graduation from the academy $35,874

Houston policeman pay upon graduation from the academy $36,022.74

Tulsa policeman pay upon graduation from the academy $42,470.16

[AVERAGE JOE]

The FOP whining about how the TPD got the shaft from the Mayor is like Al Sharpton crying racism. Happens so frequently nobody pays attention to their schtick anymore. Even if there's actual truth or value to their message, they've howled in righteous indignation so loudly for so long, they've worn people out... to the point of being tuned out.

Tulsa police officers are a dedicated group of men and women who serve this city well. The FOP is a big fat crybaby in need of a diaper change.

[MH2010]

Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

The FOP whining about how the TPD got the shaft from the Mayor is like Al Sharpton crying racism. Happens so frequently nobody pays attention to their schtick anymore. Even if there's actual truth or value to their message, they've howled in righteous indignation so loudly for so long, they've worn people out... to the point of being tuned out.

Tulsa police officers are a dedicated group of men and women who serve this city well. The FOP is a big fat crybaby in need of a diaper change.
[/quote

The FOP is made up of Tulsa Police officers.  Has your opinion of Tulsa Police officers changed now?

And RM, thanks for the news on the starting salaries in Houston, Miami and New Orleans offered now.  However, we were talking about the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's. Still their present salary and the current high profile problems in New Orleans prove the point that you get what you pay for.


There is a reason why our homicide solving rate is so high.  There is a reason why we can have smaller numbers of officers covering larger areas.  There is a reason why we make a detective division work with less officers than other cities our size. The reason the Tulsa Police department does more with less is because of the quality of the officers we have.  

The FOP is concerned because we understand this and are worried that if pay/compensation doesn't change we will be unable to attracted the large number of quality officers that we are used to having.  The police department has already began to lower standards and we are concerned that this will begin to reflect in our professionalism and quality of work.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I agree that police officer pay has a way of attracting better candidates and retaining them.
Tulsa pays a fair wage in my opinion. For comparison purposes...

New Orleans policeman pay upon graduation from the academy $38,608

Miami policeman pay upon graduation from the academy $35,874

Houston policeman pay upon graduation from the academy $36,022.74

Tulsa policeman pay upon graduation from the academy $42,470.16

Tulsa tries to promote their starting salary pay as an incentive to entice new recruits.  The problem is, you are only a starting officer for one year.  We fall horribly behind in the years following, although, New Orleans has had pay problems for years, so they will always be behind Tulsa (for now, anyway).  But, New Orleans isn't in our salary survey, either.

Are we still on topic?

[tim huntzinger]

We can get qualified, moral, highly-intelligent people without breaking the bank.  Sherriff's deputies are as qualified as TPD without needing their bums kissed, and soldiers carry a lot more firepower and do not need a BA.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

We can get qualified, moral, highly-intelligent people without breaking the bank.  Sherriff's deputies are as qualified as TPD without needing their bums kissed, and soldiers carry a lot more firepower and do not need a BA.

Let me see.  Tulsa County requires a GED to be employed.  Tulsa PD requires a bachelors degree to be employed.  Yah.  That's 'just as qualified.'  

And if you think deputies are satisfied with their pay, go ask one.  Deputies are not allowed to bargain (state law), so their salary is determined for them.  No discussion allowed.