This is why the Democrats will lose in '08

[cecelia]

quote:I think what disgusts me and other people who genuinely care about what happens to the Iraqis when/if we pull out is that those who are pushing for a timetable for immediate withdrawl have offered very little in the way of strategy and policy other than "let's get em out."

What disgusts me and other people who genuinely care - and cared - about what happens to the Iraqis is how much more so many people cared about getting some good television (aka Shock and Awe) than about the Iraqi people.
 
Shock and Awe = Bad case of American lookee shiny shiny! We're blowing up Baghdad! Make some more popcorn, Marge - and bring that onion dip with you!  Ya don't want to miss the show!

Meanwhile, how many were dying while we were salivating into the Cheetoes?

quote:People like to bash Bush for not having planned for the Iraq aftermath properly, which is fair game,

No, people justifiably are infuriated that a complete incompetent chickenhawk and his cronies invaded a country because they just felt like it and PREDICTABLY turned it into a hotbed of anti-American sentiment and terrorism.

quote:but should our exit not be planned just carefully to minimize the damage if/when we leave?

The Iraqis want us gone - yesterday. We've destroyed their country. We have a moral obligation to fix what we broke (their country), which means we owe them reparations bigtime. We also have a moral obligation to admit we were wrong and get the soldiers and warfare out of there before we do even more damage.

quote:To this date, I hear no substance, just obsequious anti-war calls for withdrawl, damn the consequences.

Hmmm. Talk about spin. [] [] []

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by Chris
[br
Would you like us to stay there permanently? If not what do you suggest?

Options to cut-n-run or stay permanently? Hmm...

Historically, a permanent presence is the far more likely option. We've yet to pull forces from Japan, Germany, Korea or the Balkans.

Anyone who thought this was going to be an afternoon's work doesn't have a grasp of the problem.

Pullout is defeat on a scale not seen before.
Of course, Dems wouldn't even do that and have to live with the ensuing bloodshed as their own making, especially before an election. Maybe after, when two years of void after two years of terror will let American memories fade, or revise history, as they have here.

The sad part is people are lying to themselves, and believing it.

[iplaw]

quote:
What disgusts me and other people who genuinely care - and cared - about what happens to the Iraqis is how much more so many people cared about getting some good television (aka Shock and Awe) than about the Iraqi people.

Shock and Awe = Bad case of American lookee shiny shiny! We're blowing up Baghdad! Make some more popcorn, Marge - and bring that onion dip with you!  Ya don't want to miss the show!

Meanwhile, how many were dying while we were salivating into the Cheetoes?

Okay...so we did it because American Idol was slipping in the ratings and we were bored?  This is a new one for me, and has to be the kookiest argument against the war that I've ever heard of.

Maybe we went to war with Iraq because we really, really hate sand?  Sounds more plausible than your explaination.

quote:
No, people justifiably are infuriated that a complete incompetent chickenhawk and his cronies invaded a country because they just felt like it and PREDICTABLY turned it into a hotbed of anti-American sentiment and terrorism.

Yes, just because they FELT like it.  I thought it was for TV ratings?  The only thing more ignorant than that statement is the fact that you think the area wasn't a hotbed of anti-Americanism and terrorism before we got there.  I suggest Stratfor.com for a little perspective.

quote:
The Iraqis want us gone - yesterday. We've destroyed their country. We have a moral obligation to fix what we broke (their country), which means we owe them reparations bigtime. We also have a moral obligation to admit we were wrong and get the soldiers and warfare out of there before we do even more damage.

This is getting fun. Explain how we've destroyed their country you thoughtless thing?  Iraq now has an infrastructure with 24 hour utilities and water purification that it could have never imagined under Saddam.  They have freedom of the press and a very expansive and ever growing media, and to top it off they aren't being oppressed by a narcisistic potentate dictator who tortured innocent men, women and children for his own twisted pleasure.

Are you completely uneducated about pre-war Iraq?  It certainly sounds like it.

[Wrinkle]

Cecelia sounds like someone who's spent a great many nights watching B-movie reruns alone and learned early to love a good pull out.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

Cecelia sounds like someone who's spent a great many nights watching B-movie reruns alone and learned early to love a good pull out.

Curiously, she seems to follow HT's posts when HT can't find a taker for his/her/it's clap-trap.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

Anyone who thought this was going to be an afternoon's work doesn't have a grasp of the problem.

Well said.  Let's review the "greeted with flowers and candy" parade:

PAUL WOLFOWITZ - Promoted head of World Bank; embroiled in scandal involving his girlfriend's salary.
DOUGLAS FEITH - Stepped down.  Teaching at Georgetown.
STEPHEN HADLEY - Promoted to National Security Advisor.
RICHARD PERLE - Stepped down.  Investigated for ethical violations concerning war profiteering and other conflicts of interest.
ELLIOT ABRAMS - Promoted to deputy national security adviser.
DAVID WURMSER - Promoted to Principal Deputy Assistant to the Vice President for National Security Affairs.
ANDREW NATSIOS - Stepped down.  Pres. Bush appointed him Special Envoy for Darfur.
DAN BARTLETT - Promoted to Counselor to the President.
MITCH DANIELS - Elected Gov. of Indiana
GEORGE TENET - Stepped down. Awarded Medal of Freedom by President.  Says he's been made a scapegoat.
COLIN POWELL - Stepped down. Said of his U.N. speech that it was a "blot" on his record. He went on to say, "It will always be a part of my record. It was painful. It's painful now."
DONALD RUMSFELD - Stepped down, day after 2006 election.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE - Promoted to Secretary of State.
DICK CHENEY - Grrrr...go F yourself.
GEORGE W. BUSH - Commandering.

Of these 15 "anyones", the principle architects of the Iraq War, 8 have received promotions, medals, or other jobs from the President.  It's a good thing that we hold people like this accountable.

[iplaw]

What the hell are you talking about?

[RLitterell]

All of this talk about funding the war, will we or won't we? Pull out now, big mistake, we support the troops but not the war, I voted for it before I voted against it, I voted against it before I voted for it .... Blah Blah Blah.

How about we just win the da*ned thing and be done with it?

Put enough boots on the ground and bombs in the air to get it overwith.

[Wrinkle]

quote:DICK CHENEY - Grrrr...go F yourself.

Yeah, but he said that to Patrick Leahy, who, in fact, is in the process of doing so, publically.

Patrick Leahy

[rwarn17588]

<Litterell says:

Put enough boots on the ground and bombs in the air to get it overwith.

<end clip>

Where are you going to bomb if you don't know where the enemy is?

So where are we going to get the troops? To end violence in Iraq, I've read estimates as low as 300,000 to a high of 500,000. At a minimum, you're going to need to double your troop numbers.

Where are they going to come from?

And if this war on "terra" is so important, why isn't the commander in chief committing to winning it in Iraq?

There's a big disconnect between all of the speechifying about the so-called grave dangers we face and the feeble reality on the ground in Iraq. It's pretty apparent that the Oval Office thought the war would be a walk in the park and they'd be out in six months, tops. Now it's four-plus years, and no end in sight.

Frankly, I don't believe a word this president says anymore. He has no credibility. Even wingnut Bill O'Reilly says that.

[cannon_fodder]

Chicken Little, if you condemn Bush for that petty list of 'scandals' you had better not be a big fan of Clinton's.  He was at least as bad with his crony appointment, their turnover, and other scandals both financial and sexual.

ps. Fark.com always refers to the vice president as "Dick 'go f**k yourself' Cheney."   That's awesome.  They also do "Senator Ted Kennedy (D-AA)."  Makes me chuckle.

[rwarn17588]

That's assuming Kennedy has ever attended Alcoholics Anonymous.

"I'm not an anonymous alcoholic; I went public!"

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

Anyone who thought this was going to be an afternoon's work doesn't have a grasp of the problem.

Well said.  Let's review the "greeted with flowers and candy" parade:

PAUL WOLFOWITZ - Promoted head of World Bank; embroiled in scandal involving his girlfriend's salary.
DOUGLAS FEITH - Stepped down.  Teaching at Georgetown.
STEPHEN HADLEY - Promoted to National Security Advisor.
RICHARD PERLE - Stepped down.  Investigated for ethical violations concerning war profiteering and other conflicts of interest.
ELLIOT ABRAMS - Promoted to deputy national security adviser.
DAVID WURMSER - Promoted to Principal Deputy Assistant to the Vice President for National Security Affairs.
ANDREW NATSIOS - Stepped down.  Pres. Bush appointed him Special Envoy for Darfur.
DAN BARTLETT - Promoted to Counselor to the President.
MITCH DANIELS - Elected Gov. of Indiana
GEORGE TENET - Stepped down. Awarded Medal of Freedom by President.  Says he's been made a scapegoat.
COLIN POWELL - Stepped down. Said of his U.N. speech that it was a "blot" on his record. He went on to say, "It will always be a part of my record. It was painful. It's painful now."
DONALD RUMSFELD - Stepped down, day after 2006 election.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE - Promoted to Secretary of State.
DICK CHENEY - Grrrr...go F yourself.
GEORGE W. BUSH - Commandering.

Of these 15 "anyones", the principle architects of the Iraq War, 8 have received promotions, medals, or other jobs from the President.  It's a good thing that we hold people like this accountable.

*YAWN*

While you are at it, why don't you try to blame the Bush Admin for Tom Sizemore's drug problem.  They seem to have effed up everything if I were to believe all your posts.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Chicken Little, if you condemn Bush for that petty list of 'scandals' you had better not be a big fan of Clinton's.  He was at least as bad with his crony appointment, their turnover, and other scandals both financial and sexual.

ps. Fark.com always refers to the vice president as "Dick 'go f**k yourself' Cheney."   That's awesome.  They also do "Senator Ted Kennedy (D-AA)."  Makes me chuckle.

Not a list of scandals.  A list of incompetent boobs who thought the war would be won in weeks.  Four years later, most of them have been promoted and rewarded for their inability to predict, or react to, the situation in Iraq.  There's something very wrong with that picture.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by RLitterell

All of this talk about funding the war, will we or won't we? Pull out now, big mistake, we support the troops but not the war, I voted for it before I voted against it, I voted against it before I voted for it .... Blah Blah Blah.

How about we just win the da*ned thing and be done with it?

Put enough boots on the ground and bombs in the air to get it overwith.

That just will not work.  We aren't fighting a unified group of soldiers, like previous conflicts.  One extremist faction may surrender while 300 others become more determined to fight back.  Its like we're fighting a bunch of little tiny nations.  If we do what you are suggesting, we will destroy as many of the people we are trying to protect as we do enemies.  These people we are fighting truly believe that God himself is telling them to fight to the death against America, and there is absolutely no measure of diplomacy or level of physical terror that will change their beief.