17 Y/O Stoned to Death in Iraq

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS
In your interesting view then, we are to ignore any negative world event?  All negative world events are good for is to call other people names?

It's not news.  It's not a world event.  It's the way things are, and have been.  You aren't going to tell me that this act surprised you, are you?

You can look anywhere in the Middle East and find legal systems in various forms of evolution on this exact issue.  But each of them at one time were here, or worse.  It takes time, a long long time, longer than it took for us to outlaw that witch trial crap.  Nothing you can do about it.  It's not state-sponsored, it's overlooked or unprosecutable for various reasons in these countries.  If you steal something in Saudi Arabia and get your hands cut off by some tribal guy, you can't really complain too much that it wouldn't happen in America.

[cannon_fodder]

I'm afraid it did surprise me Michael.  Perhaps I am naive, but I did not know such things were part of Kurdish culture.  I had a much more Westernize view of them I suppose.

I have not heard of such a stoning outside such acts in the good book.  I guess I should have assumed such things still occurred, but have never seen a report on such activity before.  Perhaps I'm just not paying attention.

Just because you say it happens frequently, and even if it does, does not make it less of an event.  Just because something horrible happens often doesnt make it less horrible.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I'm afraid it did surprise me Michael.  Perhaps I am naive, but I did not know such things were part of Kurdish culture.  I had a much more Westernize view of them I suppose.

I have not heard of such a stoning outside such acts in the good book.  I guess I should have assumed such things still occurred, but have never seen a report on such activity before.  Perhaps I'm just not paying attention.

Just because you say it happens frequently, and even if it does, does not make it less of an event.  Just because something horrible happens often doesnt make it less horrible.

It's been going on for hundreds, if not thousands of years and is considered just punishment.  Only difference is now it can be posted to Youtube and other video hosts for the rest of us to see it first-hand...and to be outraged or shocked.

[MichaelC]

You think that's bad, check the rap on Sudan.  It's not just the gov't and Darfur, crazy crap like this happens all the time in the tribes.  

We have the death penalty for murderers.  Sudan's gov't has the death penalty for lots of crimes.  Including adultery, which yes, can be carried out by stoning.

[cannon_fodder]

To clarify:

I have several friends that have been in that region in recent years.  They reported to me that it was fairly "normal."  People going to and from work, school open, etc.  I guess I had a misguided impression in my mind since their report was relative.  My cousin went North after being stationed in Baghdad and another friend from Fallujah.

Perhaps I just liked to think such things no longer happen or maybe it is the visual aspect of it.  Knowing it happened to someone and knowing it happened to a cute girl in a red dress are two different things I guess.  Or maybe Im just dense.  Either way...

[Conan71]

I think all of us are vaguely aware of the barbarism which is rampant in other parts of the world.  We just choose to block it out or assume since we don't see it, it doesn't happen anymore or never did, or it was just biblical anecdotes.

I didn't bother to follow your link or search out any video on it.  I could pretty well picture it in my mind w/o having to see it for myself.

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by shadows

We are winning this policing action by replacing the exile government from England back in power, replacing the dictator that had the power of life and death over the citizens.

They have a constitution and a system of justice we established for them.   We have thousands of casuals enforcing the traditions in their culture we cannot understand.

Did Jesus not address this same situation almost two thousand years ago?

What if it was a American Soldier she stayed all night with?

Would you feel we had soiled hands?

By the time we pull out of there, I mean it, they'd better be politically freer than the United States is (or sometimes claims to be, depending on who the Attorney general is at the time).

[shadows]

CF Quoted:

We are not putting England back in power. We turned the government over to an elected body.

I dont know what 'thousand of casuals' are.    [I got it the same place you found "dont" and "religous"]

Jesus did not address the situation. The Roman's were not seeking to quell violence in the province so they could pull their troops out. They intended to assimilate the entire region into their empire, tax them, and expand from their. There were also no attacks in which the Jews target Roman civilians at the market or schools. Additionally, the Roman's were religiously tolerant; the violence in Judea was not religous based but ethnic and territorial. So no, Jesus did not deal with this. You are again completely wrong.

I assume "stayed all night" is a euphemism for sex. If she stayed with an America soldier all night he should be court marshaled. They are not supposed to have sex with the locals and she is under age. Additionally, there is no indication "she stayed all night" with anyone. But to answer your question, no. I would not feel that we - as a nation - had 'soiled' hands because of it.
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I do not understand what events you  are reading in the chronicles where the information you are posting is found.  

At the end of WW1 the British occupied most of Mesopotamia and was given mandate over the area in 1920.  The British renamed the area as Iraq and recognized it as kingdom in 1922.   In 1932 it obtained full independence.  

Britain again occupied Iraq in WW11.  In July 1958 another military junta  brought to power Kassin who was overthrown 1963.  Arif assumed the presidency.  He was ousted 1968 by a junta by al-Bakr of the Ba'ath party.  Hussein took over the presidency and imposed authoritarian in order to quell the political instability.

The British has had control over Iraq since 1920 to where the British furnished leaders in  Iraq were exiled in Britain  which over time the British, as they are in need of the oil of the ME, they today have a deep interest in the governing of Iraq.  We are dead set on reinstalling the British picked ruling class.

So have some one read to you the chronicles of events before you cry I am wrong..
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I believe Jesus, when confronted with the Adulteress to be stoned in the Israel history, even knowing Israel by the Roman Law could not condemn to death without Roman Authority, told the Jews that had the stones in hand "that he without sin cast the first stone. "
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I believe that you are unaware of the events in the today world, on the decaying of the moral society, assuming the articles of war has presence over the hundred of thousands of years of nature laws of replenishing the species.  
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We have over 28 thousand casualties as of today's reporting with 3.3 thousand dead.  

Are you able to count on your fingers and toes in the thousands?
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Pull up the story by Jones on the opinion page of TW Sunday April 29, and have someone read the article "Pentagon was wrong to fabricate stories about Lynch, Tillman"
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I am sorry for the ending of life of such a youth by a tradition that seems to be older than history.  We are entered into this war where pride will not allow us withdraw nor will it allow us to interfere with their moral standards even with some 150,000 troops and the latest of armament.  In the passing  parade of conquerors before us,  who were defeated because their supply lines became to long, they  like us have changed the face of the earth only temporary .

[cannon_fodder]

Shadows:

1) You are wrong.  You stated in your original post that we were putting the "exile government from England back in power."  That is simply not true.  No matter how you chose to chronicle the history of Iraq, we are not putting England back in power.

Nor are we instating a dictatorship like the British. Nor are we dictating who gets elected.  We did mandate a democratic elected form of government, so we are guilty of that.

and you are the first person I have heard defend Saddam's mass executions as an action to "quell the political instability."  In that case, isnt every coup, rebellion, or dictatorship just doing the same thing?  Poll Pot wasn't executing entire villages of dissidents, he was just quelling political instability.  Nice.

2) "Dont" is a very common typing shortcut.  Add to that my right pinky has been broken so many times it cannot reach the ' key without locking in place (damn you wide receiver position!)... so I dont use it while typing.  "Religous: typo for religous.  "Thousand of Casuals" could be a phrase with a meaning other than "thousands of casualties." They are significantly different and did not want to make assumptions.

3) I thought your Jesus comment was in regards to the preceding comment which address the Iraq war as a whole. Thus, I thought you were saying the Roman occupation of Judea was synonymous with the American occupation of Iraq.  Pardon my misinterpretation, but in my defense it was a dramatic shift in conversation.

Yes, Jesus did cover public stoning over 2,000 years ago.  I believe right after he said this a single stone lobbed over the heads of the crowd.  Much to his amazement, Jesus turned around to give ye' ole' stink eye to the stone thrower; only to see the sinless virgin Mary searching for another missile.

Jokes aside, the bible makes it clear that Jesus  was decidedly against public stoning. Unfortunately, the actors do not believe in, or at least do not follow the teachings of Jesus (at least not this one).

4) Yes, I can count on my fingers and toes by the thousands.  Up to 10 thousand if each represents a single thousand integer. This answer was fairly obvious, so perhaps you were trying to ask something else?

5) Yes the government was wrong to fabricate stories of war "heroes."  I did not, have not, and will not argue this point.  If we are posting random points of agreement:  it was wrong for John Wayne Gacy to molest and murder people.

6)

quote:I believe that you are unaware of the events in the today world, on the decaying of the moral society, assuming the articles of war has presence over the hundred of thousands of years of nature laws of replenishing the species.

Ahh yes, moral society is just beginning to decay.  Thank GOD people were so much more just in days of old.  No one massacred entire villages, hunting down entire races of people, or worshiped different gods.  Speaking of gods, thank goodness in the olden days no wars were fought over religion - in the good old days the troops were even more careful to not target holy places of other faiths and would certainly not purposefully target and destroy them, loot the valuables and enslave the priests while raping the female servants of their gods.  Good thing that didnt happen in the days when people were more moral.

Thank GOD no one started major wars solely on the basis of religion.  It would be kind of silly to invade territories and kill hundreds of thousands of people in the name of GOD as those people fought back in the name of GOD.  And its a good thing the moral societies of yesterday didnt enslave masses of people and export them while using bible versus as an excuse. that would be crazy.

Or, now Im just making more stuff up here, if the church itself had millions of people executed for practicing Islam in Spain.  Or burned women at the steak for being different.  It would be awful if religous people mocked scientists and even arrested and executed them for arguing against what was known as clear biblical facts such as that the world was round, the sun goes around the earth, or that the earth is not in the center of the universe.

How about this craziness, wouldnt it be horrible if in the good ole' moral days people would go to new worlds and force entire nations of people to worship different gods or kill them while steeling their resources, raping their women, and enslaving their children?  That would be nuts if the moral people of yesterday did stuff like that.

Its just too bad we aren't as moral as we used to be in the good old days.

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by mr.jaynes

quote:Originally posted by shadows

We are winning this policing action by replacing the exile government from England back in power, replacing the dictator that had the power of life and death over the citizens.

We haven't won a thing there. Quite honestly, I think we're there simply because the current "President" had his pride wounded in Afghanistan and so he apparently wants to save face. Only question is, how will we withdraw? Will we withdraw with some modicum of dignity, or will we withdraw with our collective tail between our legs?

I really fail to see how he had his pride wounded in Afghanistan.  The Taliban was dismembered in short order and terrorist training camps were taken out.  

Whoops, we didn't get OBL.  No one can even say for certain if he is still alive or not.  Whether you find one man in a vast wasteland of desert and mountains isn't the sole determining factor of success or failure.  Hunting terrorists is like hunting prairie dogs.

The problem, like the Tribbles, is that the terrorists keep on replicating, keep on recruiting new members.

[iplaw]

quote:
The problem, like the Tribbles, is that the terrorists keep on replicating, keep on recruiting new members.

Yes, we've heard it all before, "the cause of terrorism is our resistance to it."  Why don't we just surrender now and get it over with?  What policy of ours caused 9/11?

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw
What policy of ours caused 9/11?

From the Declaration of Independence on, I believe. []

[iplaw]

Oh yeah, I forgot![B)]

I'd still love for someone to tell me what we did to piss off the muzzies during the Barbary Wars...

Those that think these loons are just going to go away are fooling themselves.

[Conan71]

I caught a little of Michael Savage last night as I was driving home.  He says Islam is not a religion but a political movement.  

Interesting POV.

He noted that the strife in certain regions of the world is always a result of Muslims not being able to get along with their neighbors.  i.e. they are almost always the instigator of trouble.

[rwarn17588]

<Conan, or addled Michael Savage said:

He noted that the strife in certain regions of the world is always a result of Muslims not being able to get along with their neighbors. i.e. they are almost always the instigator of trouble.

<end clip>

Tell the Muslims in Serbia that.

(Although, to be fair, there was a lot of ugliness by a lot of people in that part of the world during the 1990s.)