Rally Draws Attention To Immigration Bill

[Porky]

KOTV - 5/5/2007 4:17 PM - Updated 5/5/2007 9:54 PM

Both sides of the immigration debate took to the streets in Tulsa Saturday. Hispanics celebrating Cinco de Mayo came out to protest a strict immigration bill. Meanwhile, Oklahoma Minutemen rallied in support of the stricter laws. The News On 6's Joshua Brakhage reports both sides agree U.S. immigration policy is in desperate need of reform. The disagreement comes when you ask, how?

STORY----->  http://tinyurl.com/ys7lmd

[Ed W]

Isn't it odd that this story hasn't received widespread coverage?

http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/base/news/1178097526131870.xml&coll=1&thispage=1

"Five members of a self-styled militia were denied bail Tuesday after a federal agent testified they planned a machine gun attack on Mexicans, but a judge approved bail for a sixth man."

"Craig said it concerned him and his wife that agents found explosives at his place and that it was booby trapped..."I hope (agents) don't get blowed up looking for that cave," he said."

...so maybe these guys were al-Qaeda in Alabama?

[jamesrage]

quote:Originally posted by Porky

That is a laugh.If you are in this country illegally you are already a criminal,which is why people who violate our immigration laws are called "illegal aliens","illegals" or "illegal immigrants"`.If you are aiding a criminal you are a criminal too.I am so sick and tired of illegal aliens and pro-illegals groups masquerading as immigrant rights groups or Hispanic rights group and the media allowing these distortions of the truth by reporting these groups falsely as pro-immigrant or or Hispanic rights group.

Do we try to call drug dealers on the street selling illegal drugs "unlicensed street pharmacist who sell non-conventional medication" instead of drug dealers on the street selling illegal drugs,do we call speeders "time conscience drivers" instead of speeders,do we call call child molesters and rapist the "sexually confused"?Hell no,we call these people what the hell they are.The same thing should apply to the pro-illegals groups falsely misrepresenting themselves as immigrant rights or Hispanic rights groups.

[TheArtist]

Noticed this had an interesting take on latinos and immigrants, even illegal ones.

http://money.cnn.com/popups/2005/biz2/megapol/frameset.exclude.html

Specifically, check out; (I-85 Corridor)   (Great Lakes Horseshoe)  (I-35 corridor)   (Gulf Coast Belt)   (Southland)

Two of the things I have noticed in a lot of rankings, "hottest job market" "best place to grow or start a company"  "booming economy" etc. is place is in or near a large college town, has large educated work force and lots of immigrants.

Perhaps instead of trying to get illegals to leave we should figure out a way to make them legal, get more of them here and educate them. Perhaps if they had to pay a fine or penalty for not going through the original legalization process, we could set up a fund to help pay for some of that, providing they went to college here. Or, temporary or work visa as long as your going to school, then when you get your associates or bachelors, your a citizen.

If they are here illegaly and want to stay here, lets figure out a way to take advantage of that.

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Noticed this had an interesting take on latinos and immigrants, even illegal ones.

http://money.cnn.com/popups/2005/biz2/megapol/frameset.exclude.html

Specifically, check out; (I-85 Corridor)   (Great Lakes Horseshoe)  (I-35 corridor)   (Gulf Coast Belt)   (Southland)

Two of the things I have noticed in a lot of rankings, "hottest job market" "best place to grow or start a company"  "booming economy" etc. is place is in or near a large college town, has large educated work force and lots of immigrants.

Perhaps instead of trying to get illegals to leave we should figure out a way to make them legal, get more of them here and educate them. Perhaps if they had to pay a fine or penalty for not going through the original legalization process, we could set up a fund to help pay for some of that, providing they went to college here. Or, temporary or work visa as long as your going to school, then when you get your associates or bachelors, your a citizen.

If they are here illegaly and want to stay here, lets figure out a way to take advantage of that.

They break the law, and if they cannot pay the fine you want to "set up a fund" to pay for that? Just who pays for this "fund?" And let's just get them in here and educate them? So long as they're going to school and get their bachelors, they are citizens? And who is going to pay for the college tuition and board for these people that can't afford to pay a fine for coming here illegally? I can't understand the logic to your post Artist.

[rwarn17588]

I think Artist is not being an apologist for illegal immigrants. Instead, he is looking at a pragmatic way of dealing with this problem.

Stop with the demands for deportation. It's not going to happen because the current president and the viable candidates who would replace him won't do it. And for good reason -- uprooting 12 million people would be akin to Nazi Germany and the Jews.

And if you're wondering where the money's going to come from, I say stop throwing money down a rathole in Iraq and reallocate the money to domestic concerns such as tightening the border and a citizenship program so that everyone benefits.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Noticed this had an interesting take on latinos and immigrants, even illegal ones.

http://money.cnn.com/popups/2005/biz2/megapol/frameset.exclude.html

Specifically, check out; (I-85 Corridor)   (Great Lakes Horseshoe)  (I-35 corridor)   (Gulf Coast Belt)   (Southland)

Two of the things I have noticed in a lot of rankings, "hottest job market" "best place to grow or start a company"  "booming economy" etc. is place is in or near a large college town, has large educated work force and lots of immigrants.

Perhaps instead of trying to get illegals to leave we should figure out a way to make them legal, get more of them here and educate them. Perhaps if they had to pay a fine or penalty for not going through the original legalization process, we could set up a fund to help pay for some of that, providing they went to college here. Or, temporary or work visa as long as your going to school, then when you get your associates or bachelors, your a citizen.

If they are here illegaly and want to stay here, lets figure out a way to take advantage of that.

They break the law, and if they cannot pay the fine you want to "set up a fund" to pay for that? Just who pays for this "fund?" And let's just get them in here and educate them? So long as they're going to school and get their bachelors, they are citizens? And who is going to pay for the college tuition and board for these people that can't afford to pay a fine for coming here illegally? I can't understand the logic to your post Artist.

You do make a good point, but I am not sure how the fine that is already proposed will work.  My assumption is that they have to go back to their country of origin and or pay the fine all at once.

IF they wanted to stay here, with one of my ideas they could work off that fine as long as they were going to school. In that instance I would suppose it would be helpful if they were able to finance it and get some assistance paying for it that way, while that person was going to college. If they were working and paying for their college that would be a benefit to our society and to themselves over the long haul more than just paying off the fine and not going to college. That could be an option the hispanic community could pay into to help and other donors.


The other variation of that option could be; instead of a fine, they went to college, not saying the taxpayers have to pay for it, they either work and or find help to pay for it.  As long as they were going to college and making decent grades the fine would be waved.  Once they attain a certain degree then they could be citizens. Perhaps you could then say that they pay the fine after they get their degree.

I am sure either would not be easy for many of them to do.  But would give them possible options that could in the end benefit the city more so than other options I have heard.

The choices could be...

Get caught, you go back no return.

Get caught, you go back, apply for temporary workers permit, and pay a fine.

Get caught, or apply to pay off the fine while here as long as you are going to school.

Get caught, or apply to go to school, finding a way to pay for it, the fee is waived if you attain a degree and you attain citizenship as well.

Was just trying to do the ol "turn lemons into lemonade" "turn adversity into opportunity" thing with some possible ideas to contemplate.

If the hispanic community and others really didn't want families to be split up or lose a family member. They would have to step up to the plate and make sure it was possible to create ways for that family member or person to stay, and go to college. It would be no free lunch but they could take it or leave it, for it would be a very generous option to offer them and an enlightened example as well.

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

Personal comments removed

[inteller]

the illegals are trying to set a dangerous precendent.  The latest prevailing excuse is "we all pay taxes, so we should be able to stay here"

Maybe that works in Mexico, but paying taxes is NOT the only requirement for residency here, contrary to popular belief.  This kind of comment cannot be allowed to stand.  If you ever hear an illegal say this, you need to set them straight.  They are trying to appeal to the greed factor.  Sorry illegals, we know you are employed by greedy employers who take advantage of you and engage in anti competitive behavior, but 1804 is going to take care of them.  Start packing your bags.

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas

Personal comments removed

the illegals are trying to set a dangerous precendent.  The latest prevailing excuse is "we all pay taxes, so we should be able to stay here"

Maybe that works in Mexico, but paying taxes is NOT the only requirement for residency here, contrary to popular belief.  This kind of comment cannot be allowed to stand.  If you ever hear an illegal say this, you need to set them straight.  They are trying to appeal to the greed factor.  Sorry illegals, we know you are employed by greedy employers who take advantage of you and engage in anti competitive behavior, but 1804 is going to take care of them.  Start packing your bags.

Good for Oklahoma. Hopefully this will start a precedent nationwide to stop this garbage and the idiotic talk that nothing that can be done. There are cities in the metroplex that are trying to pass similar measures, but the bleeding hearts have deep pockets and love to use the court system to try and force their viewpoints on the citizens who want to enforce the laws. Of course, since they want to enforce the laws they are all called racists and hatemongers, the typical strategy of illegals and those who back them.

[jdb]

TFiT - uprooting millions of people and shipping them across a border is akin to what was forced upon the Jewish people.

The analogy stops at the train station, though.

You and I must travel in different circles.
I've heard many such conversations from Dallas to Austin and El Paso to Tucson in the last few months. Particularly Austin. But just like this thread, the subject gets heated, people start throwing stones, and then you wind up in a Mexican Standoff.

Any workable solution is going to come from a compromise that neither side likes but is willing to suffer through.

But your right about there being something in our water. And something besides duck poo at that.

I hate having to press 1 for English but it's better then having to press 3.
jdb

[Double A]

Hogwash, what a crock! If families are split up, it is due to the consequences of the criminal activity of the illegal aliens, themselves. Besides, if an illegal alien is deported, they are free to take their children back to their countries of origin with them. Illegal aliens choose to split up their families, nobody else makes that decision for them. They made that decision for themselves and their families when they chose a fugitive lifestyle by violating the immigration laws of the United States. No government makes that decision for them. Get real.

It's real simple folks, end the illegal job market, housing market, infrastructure, and government benefits that enable illegal aliens and they will self deport at very little expense to taxpayers. That's all that HB 1804 does, despite the emotional, irrational, squawking of its opponents. That's why I, as a good Democrat, support it. Governor Henry should, too.

BTW, comparing HB 1804 or its supporters to Nazis is intellectually dishonest and I think it is offensive to the Jewish community. HB 1804 is not the holocaust. Furthermore, comparing the opponents of HB 1804 marching in these parades to marchers in Selma is just as intellectually dishonest and is an insult to African Americans and the Civil Rights Movement. They are not Harriet Tubman and illegal immigration is no underground railroad, either.

It is appalling that groups like the UnAmerican Scam Coalition or the Coalition for Crime of Hispanic Organizations are fraudulently deified and given some semblance of legitimacy by making such false comparisons. These groups engage in race and faith baiting to appeal to  emotion instead of intellect or fiction instead of fact, to avoid an objective, honest debate. They ignore the role that illegal immigration has played in bringing a level of lawlessness to the streets of Oklahoma that has not been seen since pre statehood. They deny study after study of cost analysis that soundly demonstrates any "benefits" of illegal immigration are clearly outweighed by the costs. The fact is, that wages, benefits and workplace safety in the so called "jobs that Americans won't do" have been on a steady decline that is attributable and directly correlates to the growth of illegal immigration. These negative impacts exploit and undermine the stability of all working families in Oklahoma, including those here illegally. These groups give the "global warming is a hoax" conspiracy theorists a run for their money in the ridiculousness of their rhetoric.

The fact that these "Hispanic or Immigrant Advocacy" groups never seem to stand up for anything besides illegal immigration and against anyone who opposes it is a deeply disappointing disservice to legal immigrants and Hispanic Americans. Where was the outrage from these "immigrant advocates" about the virtual slave labor conditions of legal immigrants at the John Pickle Co? Why no outrage from these "Hispanic groups" about the recent Gonzalezgate political firing of U.S. District Attorney David Iglesias? The recent murder of Farm Labor Union organizer Santiago Raphael Cruz in Monterrey, Mexico? The recent gruesome death of Eleazar Torres-Gomez at Cintas right here in Tulsa due to oppressive and unsafe working conditions, or the disgusting miscarriage of justice on border patrol agents Ramos and Compean, all Hispanics?

Perhaps the answer can be found in the livelihoods of the leadership of the groups, whose ill gotten profits in many cases directly rely on illegal alien populations to exploit for cheap disposable labor, tithes, translation services, prey for predatory businesses, etc. It's just another example of the lack of credible integrity in their cause and exposes just how morally bankrupt it really is.    

I salute anyone who questions or expresses their objections to amnesty, open borders, guest worker programs and the greedy, effete, elitism that  fuels this predatory, laissez faire, feudalistic, black market economy. To demand respect and consequences for the rule of law and  to stand in firm opposition to this aggressive attack on the sovereignty, security, welfare, and democracy of our country does not make anyone a racist, or xenophobe as the distopian, fascist, purveyors of open borders and amnesty so reliably falsely accuse. Pride, patriotism, and respect for the rule law to uphold and defend the Constitution from attacks by our enemies both foreign and domestic is not racism, xenophobia, or neo nazism. It is the foundation  of the United States, to suggest otherwise is contemptuous and truly UnAmerican.

Don't speak for me!

[jamesrage]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

Hogwash, what a crock! If families are split up, it is due to the consequences of the criminal activity of the illegal aliens, themselves. Besides, if an illegal alien is deported, they are free to take their children back to their countries of origin with them. Illegal aliens choose to split up their families, nobody else makes that decision for them. They made that decision for themselves and their families when they chose a fugitive lifestyle by violating the immigration laws of the United States. No government makes that decision for them. Get real.

It's real simple folks, end the illegal job market, housing market, infrastructure, and government benefits that enable illegal aliens and they will self deport at very little expense to taxpayers. That's all that HB 1804 does, despite the emotional, irrational, squawking of its opponents. That's why I, as a good Democrat, support it. Governor Henry should, too.

Brad Henry is not a good democrat,from what I understand he is one of the pro-illegals who decided to give illegals tax payer funded tuition to illegals.

quote:  BTW, comparing HB 1804 or its supporters to Nazis is intellectually dishonest and I think it is offensive to the Jewish community. HB 1804 is not the holocaust. Furthermore, comparing the opponents of HB 1804 marching in these parades to marchers in Selma is just as intellectually dishonest and is an insult to African Americans and the Civil Rights Movement. They are not Harriet Tubman and illegal immigration is no underground railroad, either.

Other than the false accusations of racism and xenophobia,the other clue that pro-illegals are dishonest is what they try to call illegal aliens.

[jamesrage]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588


Stop with the demands for deportation. It's not going to happen because the current president and the viable candidates who would replace him won't do it. And for good reason -- uprooting 12 million people would be akin to Nazi Germany and the Jews.

Why are you comparing criminals to the Jews in Nazi Germany?And since when was deporting people who are not citizens of this country and do not have a right to be here akin to Nazi Germany?

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

quote:Originally posted by jdb

TFiT - uprooting millions of people and shipping them across a border is akin to what was forced upon the Jewish people.

The analogy stops at the train station, though.

You and I must travel in different circles.
I've heard many such conversations from Dallas to Austin and El Paso to Tucson in the last few months. Particularly Austin. But just like this thread, the subject gets heated, people start throwing stones, and then you wind up in a Mexican Standoff.

Any workable solution is going to come from a compromise that neither side likes but is willing to suffer through.

But your right about there being something in our water. And something besides duck poo at that.

I hate having to press 1 for English but it's better then having to press 3.
jdb

WRONG.. WRONG...WRONG.. These arguments that the ILLEGAL ALIENS are akin to the Jews of Nazi Germany just go to show how desperate you are to create any kind of diversion away from the REAL issue. How is the horror of the holocaust akin to deporting people that came into this country illegally? That is a slap in the face to all of those that suffered from the holocaust and you should be ashamed, literally ashamed of yourself for even bringing that up.

You don't compromise with law breakers, you put them in jail or send them back to where they came from, whether that be through attrition by taking away the carrot of jobs, anchor babies, and benefits, and/or by deportation over time. The problem will take time to resolve, but waving the white flag and saying "we surrender" will only make the problem worse in coming decades because it will encourage only more and more of the same over time. Anyone that doesn't recognize that needs to understand basic human psychology.

Citizenship in this country is something that needs to be EARNED by those that wish to come here, not given away to those who deceive and and commit criminal acts.

What do you say to all of those trying to go through legal means to get here? I can hear it now "Hey, that's life, and life ain't fair. Deal with it." Illegal sympathizers want two things:

CHEAP LABOR

VOTES

There is an agenda here having to do with money, and power. Anyone that cannot see that is part of that agenda, therefore, part of the problem.

If you illegal alien sympathizers really want to help a desperate people, why not go down to Mexico and other countries in Latin America and protest the treatment these people receive at the hands of their own corrupt governments? Do something that will REALLY impact the lives of these people so they don't come here illegally and become second class citizens, providing you with the cheap vegetables and labor, which is what you really want.

And for all of you defending making citizens out of these criminals (or even worse, giving them degrees and them making them citizens), what do you do about the border and the continued invasion of these criminals - seal it up or open it up even wider?

If 12-20 million criminals crossing the border isn't enough, when do you say stop? Why not let the whole country of Mexico and anyone else who wants to come in just come in as they please? Can't you see where your arguments completely fall apart? You need to either start taking your medication or get off it altogether because it ain't working.

And once again, it's ILLEGAL Immigrants, NOT Immigrants. Immigrants are those that come here legally, and are welcome. The fact that you don't want to distinguish between the two further waters down any pathetic little argument that you can conjure up. Get your terminology right if you wish to be taken even halfway seriously.