Inhofe and English Only

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Personal Remarks Removed

I'm calling "Godwin's Law" ! []

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

This is about the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT doing business in English and declaring English as the official language of the U.S. GOVERNMENT.  Not states, not cities.  You guys are taking a run-away mentality with this that doesn't appear to be in the bill.  We will find out for certain when the GPO has the text of the bill printed.  If you are that concerned about it, I'm sure you can call or email Sen. Inhofe, or Sen. King.

Sorry, 1040s in 185 languages.  My bad.

I just can't seem to care if 1040s, or other forms, are in more than one language.  If it's a simple useless wedge issue, again, by all means pass that, I don't care.  Just get it over with, let Inhofe go find something else to latch onto.

It'll be difficult for many in the population, and probably most congressmen to avoid the question of what this bill actually does.  What will be the effects of this bill, both direct and indirect?  It is fair to question whether or not this bill is punitive towards Spanish speakers.

[RLitterell]

Michael C

Thank you for pointing out my typo you are correct it should have been their lives not there lives.

Thats the way it usually goes, when they run out of arguements they resort to correcting everyone elses spelling.

[MichaelC]

I don't know who corrected you.  But it wasn't me.

If I had to think about spelling, I wouldn't post so much.

[Conan71]

I think it boils down to what should be incumbent upon a government who has used English as it's only language for over 200 years, and whose founding documents are all written in English.

I don't think the government should dictate what language its citizens speak amongst themselves nor in their communities (and I don't believe this bill is attempting to do that), but I do believe they have the right to declare what language it will use in conducting its business and in communications between the government and it's citizens.

[MichaelC]

And the federal gov't can and will continue to use English regardless of any legislation.  To legislate that a 1040 can never be in Spanish seems like overkill.  And a bit of a fear-tactic, since the gov't doesn't have a Spanish 1040.

It does go to the question of, is this punitive for Spanish speakers?

Spanish being a large minority language, I don't see what's so unreasonable about having a Spanish 1040.  If that were to happen at some point, I don't know that I'd care too much.  I don't see where any other languages would be necessary or logical at this time. Of course technologically, the 1040 could be made available in tons of languages on the cheap with virtually no problems to the IRS.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I think it boils down to what should be incumbent upon a government who has used English as it's only language for over 200 years, and whose founding documents are all written in English.

I don't think the government should dictate what language its citizens speak amongst themselves nor in their communities (and I don't believe this bill is attempting to do that), but I do believe they have the right to declare what language it will use in conducting its business and in communications between the government and it's citizens.

Yeah, that's kind of the way I look at it. This isn't English Only that would in fact dictate language. Americans throughout our history have been united by a common language. Making that language the official language of government is just plain common sense. United we stand, divided we fall.

Inhofe still sucks. He's a political Dead Man Walking.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

And the federal gov't can and will continue to use English regardless of any legislation.  To legislate that a 1040 can never be in Spanish seems like overkill.  And a bit of a fear-tactic, since the gov't doesn't have a Spanish 1040.

It does go to the question of, is this punitive for Spanish speakers?

Spanish being a large minority language, I don't see what's so unreasonable about having a Spanish 1040.  If that were to happen at some point, I don't know that I'd care too much.  I don't see where any other languages would be necessary or logical at this time. Of course technologically, the 1040 could be made available in tons of languages on the cheap with virtually no problems to the IRS.

I don't think there is a diabolical intent to the law.  Inhofe haters may disagree, but I'd say the color of those glasses are at least slightly tinted. []

It doesn't only relate to tax forms.  There are many other forms that our government uses in communicating or transacting business amongst its citizens and amongst various branches.

I'm sure if the IRS felt it was losing revenue by not having bi-lingual forms, they would make sure that people who do not speak English would be able to complete a tax form.

That being said, many illegal immigrants do not file a tax return, so that pretty much makes it a moot point.  Those who are here on legal work visas or are working on naturalization (BTW welcome to the 55 new citizens who took the oath yesterday in Tulsa) tend to have a decent grasp of the English language as they tend to respect our laws and de-facto official language quite a bit more.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I don't think there is a diabolical intent to the law.  Inhofe haters may disagree, but I'd say the color of those glasses are at least slightly tinted. []

Not that you can prove that.  You said yourself that automated system at the IRS gave you a Spanish option.  This legislation would, theoritically, eliminate that.

You can paint it as some kind of national priority to officialize English.  But you can certainly make the argument that this is nothing more than denying services to Spanish speakers.  

Is it punitive to Spanish speakers?  That case can be made.  I have not seen anything that tells me it is necessary or just in any way to officialize English.

[Conan71]

It appears to reflect the will of the people if Zogby is to be believed.  84% for English as the official language.

Yep, it would very likely remove instrucciones de espaniol from the automated gov't phone systems.

Practical, most likey.  Hateful or punitive intent, not IMO.

Let's see what the text of the measure says when the GPO releases it before we get our collective panties in a wad.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Practical, most likey.  Hateful or punitive intent, not IMO.

Practicality:  Disaffecting millions so that you push one less button.

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I believe a lot of legislation is being interpreted as anti-Mexican.

Indeed.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I believe a lot of legislation is being interpreted as anti-Mexican.

Indeed.

I should have said wrongfully interpreted...

[MichaelC]

But you didn't.  And that is the point.

This entire argument will always teeter on outright bigotry, unless you've got a really good argument.  There has to be a decent reason to disaffect millions of people, otherwise, if you've got nothing there aren't many conclusions to be drawn.

I still believe it's a wedge issue, and currently, a dead issue.  Meant to fire up neocon supporters, people who are offended when they walk by someone speaking Spanish at a grocery store.  People that are offended by signs in Spanish in downtown.  People that want to close down Soccer parks because Hispanics dwell there.  

There's a year and a half until the next elections, a few of these Representatives are looking to get their names onto something their constituency will support.  Doesn't matter whether it flies or not, that was never the point.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

But you didn't.  And that is the point.

This entire argument will always teeter on outright bigotry, unless you've got a really good argument.  There has to be a decent reason to disaffect millions of people, otherwise, if you've got nothing there aren't many conclusions to be drawn.

I still believe it's a wedge issue, and currently, a dead issue.  Meant to fire up neocon supporters, people who are offended when they walk by someone speaking Spanish at a grocery store.  People that are offended by signs in Spanish in downtown.  People that want to close down Soccer parks because Hispanics dwell there.  

There's a year and a half until the next elections, a few of these Representatives are looking to get their names onto something their constituency will support.  Doesn't matter whether it flies or not, that was never the point.

Only as long as people are willing to scream the word "bigot" when it comes to making common-sense laws.  Call it what you like, just as long as you don't insinuate I'm a bigot.

I don't see how people who are complying with our immigration laws would be disaffected dealing with the government.  Somehow Italians, Russians, Polls, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, et. al. have managed to get by without multi-lingual phone systems and documents.  Why are we demanding special treatment for only one nationality of immigrants?  Isn't that biased and bigoted in favor of Hispanics to the disadvantage of the millions of Hindi, Chinese, and Arabic-speaking (and others) population?

Don't we want our Congress to pass laws which refect the will of the people?  84% in favor would make it pretty much a bi-partisan issue, unless Zogby only polled Republicans to come up with those results.  I don't think you can characterize the majority of Americans a bunch of bigots.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Only as long as people are willing to scream the word "bigot" when it comes to making common-sense laws.  Call it what you like, just as long as you don't insinuate I'm a bigot.

You haven't made the case that this is in any way "common-sense".  You've only made the case so far, that you're perfectly fine with cutting off services to Spanish speakers, for little to no apparent reason.  That may answer my issue, the bill may indeed be quite worthless.  Satisfying both total bigots and those who don't care.

quote:I don't see how people who are complying with our immigration laws would be disaffected dealing with the government.  Somehow Italians, Russians, Polls, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, et. al. have managed to get by without multi-lingual phone systems and documents.  Why are we demanding special treatment for only one nationality of immigrants?  Isn't that biased and bigoted in favor of Hispanics to the disadvantage of the millions of Hindi, Chinese, and Arabic-speaking (and others) population?

Yes, and there are probably 10 or 12 Pygmies living around here somewhere, surely we can figure out their language.  It's rediculous to assume that all languages would be included.  Completely impractical.

quote:Don't we want our Congress to pass laws which refect the will of the people?  84% in favor would make it pretty much a bi-partisan issue, unless Zogby only polled Republicans to come up with those results.  I don't think you can characterize the majority of Americans a bunch of bigots.

Not necessarily.  When 77% of Hispanics are in favor, it brings to mind serious questions.  Either the polling is questionable ignoring the effects of "Official Language", or there are no effects.  Again, the legislation could be completely meaningless.  I'm beginning to think it is.