Death and Taxes

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

If you did not care, you would not have mentioned it.

Care about what?  That you haven't gotten over the fact that this tax will never fly, or that you still don't know what it will do?  Collecting taxes doesn't matter much, if you demo everything decent about the US in the process.  

quote:Also, as a matter of fact, I have yet to shed a single tear over this situation.  Though your dedication to ignorance on this matter might be said to drive a man to tears.

Bring it on you lump of sh!t.  You want to start hurling insults be my guest.

[iplaw]

[}:)][}:)] Hey MichaelC...How long many more bombs are you going to throw before you lock the thread?

This is just getting better and better.

[}:)][}:)]

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

[}:)][}:)] Hey MichaelC...How long many more bombs are you going to throw before you lock the thread?

This is just getting better and better.

[}:)][}:)]

Just a few more posts I suppose.  CF wants this to be personal, I kind of like it personal.  Unfortunately, that gets me in trouble.  Always a drawback somewhere.

[iplaw]

Boy you're a hateful little man...[}:)]

BTW, what did CF do to make this personal?  It's a fricken discussion over taxes for pete's sake.

This must be a first for the Internet.  Someone actually getting pissed off over a tax thread.  Someone call Guinness I think we have a new world record!

[MichaelC]

I don't get pissed over taxes.  That's why I support the current tax system.  []

[iplaw]

I remember sitting in my Antitrust class with a proff by the name of Brian Johnson teaching.  It was one of the only classes I feel I learned something in during law school.

I remember one day, one of these "Po People" action groups were on campus soliciting help for their organization.  They were asking law students with accounting backgrounds to help po people out with their taxes for free.

I'll never forget the look on Johnson's face and what he said to us when the girl who was pleading for our help left the room...

"Helping poor people with their tax returns???what the hell is this!  Poor people don't even pay taxes!  Damn, that was a waste of class time!"  

[MichaelC]

The "Fair Tax" idea may function properly, and do little to no damage to the US.  It may do exactly the opposite, and render the US unrecognizable within a couple years of passage.  You won't be able to prove it either way.  It takes an assumption, a leap of faith, to say "we'll suffer no damage."  The only way to prove the effects of a "Fair Tax", is to have a "Fair Tax", and then watch and learn.

Taxes can be irritating, but they're also a fact of life here.  I can't get too riled up about it, I just manage as best as possible and know what the damage will be.  I do not spend everything I earn.  On April 15th, I'm not broke.  A "Fair Tax" system would benefit me.  For me, that's not the point.

[cannon_fodder]

Since this thread is going downhill fast anyway:

Screw Brian Johnson.  His class was fun and I learned a ton, but at the end of the day he gave grades based on how nice your legs were and whether or not you drank beer with him on a golf cart.  Not that I did poorly, but seriously.

Of course, all that said, I would have taken any other classes he taught.  The man was damn funny and new his stuff.  Even if he was a prick and showed up hang over everyday.

Best lines:

"Christ, where I live my neighbors have nothing better to do than sit around and complain about me.  Those bastards don't even really work."

- Umm professor, I thought you only worked teaching this class from 10-11:15 on Tuesdays and Thursdays?

"Shouldn't you be reading something?"

&

"For gods sake, I'm the smartest person in this entire university.  Of course, that's like being the tallest midget."

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Since this thread is going downhill fast anyway:

Bad timing man, bad timing.  I'm trying to get this thing back on topic.  []

[cannon_fodder]

Perhaps the problem is that I do not see the downside.  It is set up to be as progressive as the current state of affairs and exempts everyone that is currently exempt from taxes.  Perhaps most important to the fed, it will collect the same amount of money.

I'm not trying to be daft, what are the downsides?  In what way could it destroy the country?

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

The "Fair Tax" idea may function properly, and do little to no damage to the US.  It may do exactly the opposite, and render the US unrecognizable within a couple years of passage.  You won't be able to prove it either way.  It takes an assumption, a leap of faith, to say "we'll suffer no damage."  The only way to prove the effects of a "Fair Tax", is to have a "Fair Tax", and then watch and learn.

Pretty much the same thing we had to do with the progressive tax system, watch & learn.  

There are some people who have seen enough of it, including myself.

Discovering that I would benefit from the Fair Tax by working some loose math, using liberal spending figures, pretty much means I have a vested interest in it now.  I still want to read more and look into the depths of it.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Since this thread is going downhill fast anyway:

Screw Brian Johnson.  His class was fun and I learned a ton, but at the end of the day he gave grades based on how nice your legs were and whether or not you drank beer with him on a golf cart.  Not that I did poorly, but seriously.

Of course, all that said, I would have taken any other classes he taught.  The man was damn funny and new his stuff.  Even if he was a prick and showed up hang over everyday.

Best lines:

"Christ, where I live my neighbors have nothing better to do than sit around and complain about me.  Those bastards don't even really work."

- Umm professor, I thought you only worked teaching this class from 10-11:15 on Tuesdays and Thursdays?

"Shouldn't you be reading something?"

&

"For gods sake, I'm the smartest person in this entire university.  Of course, that's like being the tallest midget."

Oh the memories.  Did he ever tell you the story of how he shot through his upstairs bathroom floor while he was doing his business in the bathroom...that one was fantastic.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Perhaps the problem is that I do not see the downside.  It is set up to be as progressive as the current state of affairs and exempts everyone that is currently exempt from taxes.  Perhaps most important to the fed, it will collect the same amount of money.

I'm not trying to be daft, what are the downsides?  In what way could it destroy the country?

First, since you appear to like the talking points and FAQs, let's go right after one of them.

quote:19 Should the government tax services?

Service providers are not exempt from the income tax today, and should not be exempt from the FairTax. Services now account for well over one-half of the gross domestic product (GDP). Neither consumption of services nor consumption of goods should be tax preferred. And it is economically foolish not to tax the fastest growing segment of our economy. Competition, not politics, should determine what goods and services cost.

Over half of the GDP.  Explain how a 30% sales tax has no effect on services.  For grins, if you need to reference, let's say "Weber's."  You could go straight for Corporate Income Tax elimination, and how it offsets the sales tax.  Might add in a little "how eliminating a payroll deduction" would offset it.  Those assumptions aside, what are the effects on services if a 30% increase in sales taxes, is not offset by income tax elimination?

Try keeping it short.

[cannon_fodder]

Short version:

- It will be off set by elimination of income tax.
- People will still consume services at the same rate.
- Revenue collection will remain the same as a guarantee
--------------------------------

Since such short answers do not really aid in discussion, the long form:

1) I was not reading from talking points, I was addressing your areas of concern.  Until now, I have not seen the list of 50 talking points you quoted from:
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq_answers

2) A 30% sales tax will have no effect on services for two primary reasons:

a) the elimination of income tax will free up the capital required to cover the new tax.  There is no point in discussing the addition of a national sales tax to the current system, because that is not what I am advocating.   Thus, it will be offset by definition of the Fair Tax proposal.

b) services are consumed at a constant rate.  A 30% increase in cost across the board will have no effect on the services provided because all alternatives are equally taxed.  People will still go to the dentist, rent cranes, hire attorney's and have their carpets cleaned at the same rate they currently do (just like when gas prices go up 25 cents in a week, people still drive).
- - - -

I'm not sure what your side points were concerning, the elimination of income tax and payroll deductions would all be offset by the new national sales tax.  By definition it will be required to collect the same level of revenue.  So any discussion of what effect not offsetting those would have is moot.  BY DEFINITION, the income tax will be eliminated and totally offset by the national sales tax.

and that is short, considering many doctoral papers in economics and entire books have been written on this subject.
-------

And finally, I have never attacked you personally.  I stated that you were trying to remain ignorant on the topic and describe such as sticking your head in the sand - by your own statements this was an accurate portrayal. However, it appears that you have decided to at least peruse some of the issues it involves, and I thank you for that.

Am I to understand that your true dislike of the FairTax stems from a simple desire to avoid change?  It seems the common thread in your quips, that you don't want a new system because without regard to the current systems flaws it doesn't bother you.  That is my current understanding.  If you oppose it for some other reason let me know - proposing 'short answers' to economics questions whose answer is outlined in the very document you quote:

quote:The short answer is that there is no provision in the FairTax bill (HR 25) that would prevent having a national sales tax and the income tax.

; is not exactly clarifying your opposition.

[edit]if you do not recognize the flaws in the currents system as shown above, do not care about efficiency, or simply dont care at all just state so and I can talk to someone who does.  If there is something you dont understand - if you dont know WHY I think it is a better system or want to convince me it is flawed, let me know.  It appears you are sniping at the idea from any direction that is convenient without actually stating your opposition.[/edit]

[Conan71]

I'm still reading up on it, but a few things popped into my head on this:

It would take a huge burden off the self-employed and sole proprietorships with tax compliance and social security taxes.  There are lots of self-employed people who lack the discipline or cash flow to properly portion out and save their taxes.  They wind up scratching their donkey when it's time to pay quarterlies or the big day of reckoning every April.

When I had my own business, I was paying about $3K per year for outside accounting services to audit my books and tell me what I owed in taxes because it was so friggin' frustrating to figure out and took time away from being able to make money.

Another advantage I'm seeing for the good of the workforce is getting rid of the portion of payroll taxes that employers must contribute now which is a part of overhead.  New jobs could be created and funded by savings on payroll taxes.  The cost of payroll taxes is one dis-incentive for smaller companies to hire new people.

I like the fact that all spending is pre-tax and is discretionary.  I like that housing costs would now be pre-tax, as well as savings.

CF- let me make sure I read this correctly from the FT site-

"Service providers are not exempt from the income tax today, and should not be exempt from the FairTax. Services now account for well over one-half of the gross domestic product (GDP). Neither consumption of services nor consumption of goods should be tax preferred. And it is economically foolish not to tax the fastest growing segment of our economy. Competition, not politics, should determine what goods and services cost."

Services would be taxed, yes?  IOW, I would pay sales tax on say, a haircut.  My barber no longer has to sweat all the tax issues other than keeping track of his sales, reporting the sales, and remitting the taxes, yes?