Kendall Whittier Neighborhood

[AMP]

Many areas of Tulsa are seeing a decaying population of commercial businesses.  On Admiral between Lewis and Yale there are over two dozen firms that have closed and the buildings are Available.  

This is also the case on North Peoria, North Lewis and North Harvard.  

Lack of commercial businesses, a growning number of vacant buildings and the loss of jobs in the area seem to be gaining at a rapid rate over those businesses that are opening for the first time or moving into the area.  The "More going out of business than Into business" syndrome.

Recently parking lots of businesses in that area are scarce of customers vehicles.  One day this week one could of filmed the Day the Earth Stood Still II in the area and not of needed traffic control.  

Not sure if it is the $3 plus per gallon fuel crunch, lack of decent paying jobs, the fact we are at war, or just that many folks are finding it less expensive to stay home nowdays.  You do see an abundant number of vehicles parked in apartment parking lots and in driveways of homes during the day more and more.

Just appears from all indicators of the physical look of the area that things are not good in Tulsa financially and they appear to be getting much much worse daily.  More of a domino effect towards economic disaster in my opinion from just what I observe and from talking with others that own small to medium size businesses here.  

Perhaps some have a different viewpoint on the subject, but the large number of Available Signs and the lack of Help Wanted signs spells trouble in most of recent history.

[AMP]

Appears there are two less folks to cause problems living in the neighborhood tonight.

http://www.kotv.com/news/topstory/?id=128561

http://www.kotv.com/e-clips/?id=6499

[Double A]

I agree with AJ. I've lived in Tulsa long enough to remember the really bad times that extended to the fringes of Swan Lake, Maple Ridge, Yorktown, Riverview, Florence Park, etc. Progress moves slowly sometimes, but I do see progress in the neighborhoods that surround downtown, granted much remains to be done. I firmly believe that by 2025(maybe even sooner) we could see areas like Crosbie Heights, Owen Park, Brady Heights, Crutchfield, The Pearl, and Kendall Whittier rise to experience a rejuvenation and  renaissance like Cherry St. and Brookside have. In many of these areas, the progress has already begun, although still in it's infancy. Doesn't anybody else remember what Cherry St or Brookside was like 15 years ago?

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Even the adult bookstore closed.

They actually closed that?

[AMP]

The owner, who I believe was from the Kansas City are and owned two stores in Tulsa one at Admiral and Lewis and the second at 9th and Sheridan passed away.  

The two long time Tulsa locatoins  closed shortly after his death.

Many other long time businesses surrounding and near both those locations have also closed.  The private business economy in those areas is not looking healthy at all.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by AMP

The owner, who I believe was from the Kansas City are and owned two stores in Tulsa one at Admiral and Lewis and the second at 9th and Sheridan passed away.  

The two long time Tulsa locatoins  closed shortly after his death.

Many other long time businesses surrounding and near both those locations have also closed.  The private business economy in those areas is not looking healthy at all.

Admiral & Lewis still looks pretty robust to me: Ziegler's, Swinney's, Bix, the restaurant across from Zieglers, the Circle, etc.  9th & Sheridan doesn't seem to be doing much worse.

FWIW, maybe the people who owned small businesses in the areas you are talking about went to work for someone else to make more money.  I believe Tulsa's UE rate is 3.8% which means full employment.

Last year, Tulsa was ranked by Forbes as 2nd in the nation for income growth.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

I agree with AJ. I've lived in Tulsa long enough to remember the really bad times that extended to the fringes of Swan Lake, Maple Ridge, Yorktown, Riverview, Florence Park, etc. Progress moves slowly sometimes, but I do see progress in the neighborhoods that surround downtown, granted much remains to be done. I firmly believe that by 2025(maybe even sooner) we could see areas like Crosbie Heights, Owen Park, Brady Heights, Crutchfield, The Pearl, and Kendall Whittier rise to experience a rejuvenation and  renaissance like Cherry St. and Brookside have. In many of these areas, the progress has already begun, although still in it's infancy. Doesn't anybody else remember what Cherry St or Brookside was like 15 years ago?

Try more like 25 or 30 years ago... ghack!

Renovation seems to be pushing further north.  YP's discovered Florence Park in the mid-'80's.  Rising house prices in that area, in turn, brought more buyers to Eastlawn (just north of Flo Pa), White City, and several other neighborhoods with gingerbread and bungalow-style houses.

I went to Barnard Elementary back in the mid-'70's and remember most of the houses just north and west of there in the 17th & Lewis area, were getting fairly run-down.  Now the strip of Gillette from 17th to 15th is spectacular.  St. Johns, I believe, has helped spur renovations west of Barnard and across Utica into the Swan Lake area.  Also high prices for Maple Ridge and around Woodward Park have done wonders for renovations in other areas which used to be less desireable but have similar square-foot homes available.

[AMP]

A couple of business owners in that area I know chose to retire as it cost them more of their SSI check to keep their business open versus sitting at home.  The barber on Sheridan died and no one stepped up to lease his joint. Auto parts store owner sold the lot he owned next door to the music business who moved away from the 11th and Yale location. Auto parts store owner retired from his business as it was not profitable to keep it open.    

Granted there will always be some businesses that have enough backing to survive bad economic times. Or the business location serves as a tax write off for a corporation that has multiple locations in several states.  Or are part of a trust or foundation that is a non or not for profit organization and is not there to make a profit or raise a family.  
 
As far as un-enployment numbers that are reported that is a skewed number to start with.  The number only reflects people that have active claims. Once they have exceeded their total amount of payments, they drop off the roles and are no longer counted.  So an individual that is collecting un-employment benefits is counted, but once they receive their final payment they no longer are counted as un-employed.  Even though they may continue to be un=employed for months or years following their lay off or business closing.  

Remember not too long ago the president extended un-employment benefit time lines to help Americans who had lost jobs and were unable to be re-employed at near the same wages and benefits and working at the same or similer positions.  Retraining funds were needed for Vocational retraining for many who's skills were no longer needed in the work place.  

Also remember that folks that have exhausted their benefits are not eligible to file for another un-employment claim until they have worked for a minimum amount consistently for required set time.  This is the old "Chicken Pit Trick".   If there is a break in employment earnings during that period, their clock may zero and they may have to start that process over again.  So the possibility of an employee filing two un-employment claims within a two year period is very slim.

Once an area such as Tulsa, that suffered from massive lay off two to three years prior, has gone through those employees filing for un-employment benefits and exhausting their claim, the likelihood of them refilling and being counted as un-employed, even though they are, is rare.  

Also, business owners, family members who worked at the business, partners and investors that close a business are not included, as they are not eligible to claim.  

The new trend of many businesses is to never hire non-core employees and only use either temporary employees or contract labor.  Both these methods skew the reported un-employed numbers once again.  Due to an amendment to the Un-Employment filing law, a temporary employee or any employee for that matter is required to contact their employer, the temp agency for example, to see if there are any open assignments prior to being allowed to file for un-employment.  If working temp, because they are listed as a temporary employee with the agency, they are subject to being re-assigned to most any skill level that the agency provides that the temp has stated or checked off on their skill level grid.  If they refuse to accept the assignment they are normally are denied benefits as they are considered to have "voluntarily quit"  Therefore, those employees have much less of a chance of ever being able to file for un-employment benefits under the current Oklahoma statutes.  

So keep in mind that the current monthly reported numbers of unemplpoyed in the county from the Oklahoma Employment Security Commission are only for people that qualifired for and are currently receiving benefits, and no one else.

The actual number of folks living in the county that are not working is typically a much higher number.

[Conan71]

AMP-

I believe for statistical sake, people who have been unemployed beyond their benefits are considered by the UEC as either being unemployable for various reasons (in jail, mental or physical disability) or not actively seeking employment and are therefore no longer counted.  IOW, the people you are talking about are not "statistically" unemployed according to government standards.  I believe the standard pretty much revolves around those who are not presently employed, but are gainfully seeking employment.

Anyone who can't find some sort of income-producing occupation within a week of losing a job aren't trying or can afford to coast until something they would rather do comes along.  It may not be what they want to do for the rest of their life, nor what they are used to doing or earning, but finding a job in Tulsa is a simple matter these days if someone really wants to work.

Keep in mind with your assertion of people not being counted, that there are also people counted in the unemployment number who are doing day work and piece work for cash.

Looking through the Sunday paper on any given week, job openings in the Tulsa area number in the thousands.  Some of the hard-core unemployed are either lazy, or won't swallow their pride and become under-employed until something commensurate with their experience or job skills becomes available.

Vacant mom-and-pop hardware stores, auto parts stores and the like have nothing to do with a poor economy these days.  Back in the early '80's I might have chewed on that bait.  National chains are obsoleting those businesses, with nicer stores with better on-site inventory.  It seems that for every Med-X drug that closed, two new Walgreens would spring up.  National chains wouldn't invest in our town if the economy sucked that bad.

Tulsa is as robust as ever.  If you base your view of the economy on mom & pop businesses past their prime or newer businesses with no business plan or a crappy one at that, you are missing the big picture of what is really happening in the Tulsa economy.  

My advice to people who want to be in business for themself is:

Don't do something that a national chain does well and prominently in your trade area.

Don't specialize in something which is pretty much a commodity anyone can buy on-line.

Find something you do well, there is demand for with limited local or e-commerce competition, and put it in a good location which will appeal to your primary market.

Good value-added services type businesses will do better than small retail, unless you have an exclusive or near exclusive market for what you are retailing and you can expand it to internet sales.

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael


I once went into Novel Idea and looked around for some fantasy football magazines. Finding none, I went up to the clerk and said, "excuse me, where is the magazine section"?. The clerk, sneered at me over his glasses and said in a very snotty voice, "Sir, we do not carry periodicals!"

I hear ya, Michael. Pseudo-intellectual snobbery like that is something I've seen in big display in my time on this rock. People like the ones you have mentioned are the types who are not equipped with technical skills, are not yet posessed of a degree that can actually work for them, are too proud to wait tables, and yet beneath the Call Center industry. I for one enjoy having fun at their expense.

[daddys little squirt]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

AMP-

I believe for statistical sake, people who have been unemployed beyond their benefits are considered by the UEC as either being unemployable for various reasons (in jail, mental or physical disability) or not actively seeking employment and are therefore no longer counted.  IOW, the people you are talking about are not "statistically" unemployed according to government standards.  I believe the standard pretty much revolves around those who are not presently employed, but are gainfully seeking employment.

Anyone who can't find some sort of income-producing occupation within a week of losing a job aren't trying or can afford to coast until something they would rather do comes along.  It may not be what they want to do for the rest of their life, nor what they are used to doing or earning, but finding a job in Tulsa is a simple matter these days if someone really wants to work.

Keep in mind with your assertion of people not being counted, that there are also people counted in the unemployment number who are doing day work and piece work for cash.

Looking through the Sunday paper on any given week, job openings in the Tulsa area number in the thousands.  Some of the hard-core unemployed are either lazy, or won't swallow their pride and become under-employed until something commensurate with their experience or job skills becomes available.

Vacant mom-and-pop hardware stores, auto parts stores and the like have nothing to do with a poor economy these days.  Back in the early '80's I might have chewed on that bait.  National chains are obsoleting those businesses, with nicer stores with better on-site inventory.  It seems that for every Med-X drug that closed, two new Walgreens would spring up.  National chains wouldn't invest in our town if the economy sucked that bad.

Tulsa is as robust as ever.  If you base your view of the economy on mom & pop businesses past their prime or newer businesses with no business plan or a crappy one at that, you are missing the big picture of what is really happening in the Tulsa economy.  

My advice to people who want to be in business for themself is:

Don't do something that a national chain does well and prominently in your trade area.

Don't specialize in something which is pretty much a commodity anyone can buy on-line.

Find something you do well, there is demand for with limited local or e-commerce competition, and put it in a good location which will appeal to your primary market.

Good value-added services type businesses will do better than small retail, unless you have an exclusive or near exclusive market for what you are retailing and you can expand it to internet sales.

Pretty typical remark from a guy who is probably overemployed, gets a cell provided for him and his spouse and is solidly republican. First off, who asked for your advice? And secondly your arrogance reminds me of Ed Meese, one of Reagan's goons. I remember a cartoon of him looking out over his huge belly which obscured the sight of starving ragamuffin kids with their hands out. The caption was one of his infamous remarks that reminds me of your clueless post, "I don't see any hungry kids in America".

[AMP]

A few other businesses in the area that have closed along the domino closing side of the street include the Family Diner which was in business for over 21 years {opened in 1985} in that area, an automotive repair business, an automotive collision paint and body repair business, two automotive parts business, an automotive component repair business, a resale store, an antique store, a health food store. Near by closings include a book store, a pet store, a computer store, five - Day Labor temp help companies including three on North Sheridan, four large manufacturing plants, a motorcycle repair business, another auto repair business, a neon sign business, and various other non-descript buildings that are available which I cannot recall what business they were in.  Most the locations they were in are vacant today.  

Interesting that there brokers that could located investors interested in buying any of these ongoing long term business in this area.  Guess the Wal Greens and other major chains have done their small to mid size competitors businesses under in Tulsa.  Pity as the majority of their profits leave the state and go towards improving the City where those corporations are.  

Just like the payments in the millions that go to the dozen or so Yellow Page books we have in and surrounding Tulsa, and the Power company where the payments go to Ohio.

Guess I am not seeing the benefit of allowing corporations that are from out of Oklahoma to do business here that does not seem to benefit the local economy other than small paychecks to clerks and a manager and perhaps rent on the space they occupy.  Most likely they were given some sort of corporate welfare including but no limited to tax subsidies to get them to move here.    

I submit any outside businesses that wish to locate in Oklahoma should be reuired to adopt a decaying Bridge or the entire square mile that their new building will sit on.  They should be reuired to invest in repaving the entire mile long street on both sides in front of their locations. If it has already been done by another business, then allow them to choose another street to rehabilitate.  

I am positive there are enough streets that need to be repaved and bridges that need to be rebuilt to supply every Wal Greens and Wal Mart that wishes to open in our fair city and state.  

Otherwise, go somewhere else to suck the profits out of the local economy, drive small and mid size owners out of business and pay low wages to the clerks and hired help, while helping to lower the standard of living in the towns and cities they infest.

Majority of the local owned Auto Parts stores used up to four major warehouse distributors located in Tulsa for their supply.  Most could get a part within a days notice, many parts could be delivered within a couple of hours.  And the majority of those parts were made in America, and were Original Equipmen Manufactured parts which were at or exceeded the manufactures requirements.

Speaking of Chain Auto Parts stores, most sell parts made or refirburbished in China, Mexico, Brazil and other countries other than the US.  These substandard parts may carry a replacement warrantee, but most do not cover the labor required to retrieve the lower standard part from the customers vehicle.  So the chains were able to drive the parts dealers that sold OEM standard quality parts out of business while pawning off their inferior junk on the unsuspecting, looking for the lowest price buyer.  

There is a trade off with everything.  Up and Down side, sometimes it takes a few months or perhaps a year to discover one has been taken advantage of.  

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by daddys little squirtFirst off, who asked for your advice?

You did.  By virtue of participating on this forum you have expressed interest in hearing other peoples' point of view.  If you are not interested in hearing other points of view, topics of discussion, or opinions; this is not the place for you.  It's ironic that your signature line encourages being open minded, yet you berate people for sharing their opinions.

Unemployment
WHen we talk about "unemployment" we are usually referring to the BLS numbers.  Their definition of unemployed can be found here:
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm

Basically, you are counted as unemployed IF:
1. You are over 16 years old
2. You are in the United States with a legal right to work
3. You did not work for wages in the last month
and 4. You actively looked for work.
(there are some other details - for instance if you are laid off and expect to be recalled you are still considered unemployed and active military are not part of the labor force)

Therefor, "the unemployment rate" is not the same as persons receiving unemployment benefits. Many people are unemployed and are not receiving unemployment for a wide range of reasons (not eligible, exhausted benefit, did not apply, contested...).  The numbers for unemployment benefits is NOT statistical, it is an actual number.  It is based on the number of people getting unemployment checks.

The Unemployment Rate, on the other hand, is based on monthly surveys.  The monthly unemployment statistics are reported with a 97% confidence interval - so its pretty damn accurate.  With 97% confidence we can say that the unemployment rate in Tulsa is 3.6%, and no matter how you look at it that's pretty damn good.

In fact, its TOO LOW!  3.6% is low enough to discourage businesses from moving to town.  3% is considered FULL employment as a certain number at a given time are being fired, laid off, business closing, or quit and are looking for a better job.  The oddity of 2.4% in 2001 is not good for a regions long term economic stability (indicates we can not attract new workers and consequently discourages business from coming here).
--------

There are plenty of jobs in Tulsa, and plenty of 'good jobs.'  In my opinion, some professional fields are over loaded in Tulsa and I would very much like to see the demand for their services rise - but over all things are good.  In fact, many (most) companies are struggling to find qualified workers (mine is for sure).  You have my sympathy if your field is struggling in the Tulsa market, but the overall picture is as good as it has ever been.

By the end of the summer we will be at an all time high for employment in Tulsa... a mark we set a couple of months ago.  Most jobs ever.  

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=070531_5_E1_spanc78514
Article showing 3.6% unemployment and total jobs near the record high.

If you want to be a nay sayer and cry "but the jobs suck" that is 1st of all a change in direction and a succession of my point, and 2nd:  back it up with something.  I'm tired of people spouting forth on topics they are uninformed on and do not bother to research.

QED

[daddys little squirt]

I didn't. And neither did anyone else. When I go to a coffee house I don't expect talkative patrons to enlighten me on their coffee preferences either. The thread was about a neighborhood and its changing nature. No one said anything about the economy, how to select a career, how to run a small business or what current know-it-all smug republican conservatives are serving up as success these days. Perhaps if you and Conan and Ip want to continue to infuse your political/economic opinions and attitudes into every thread, You should leave and start your own circle jerk thread.

This Calvinist hangover that everything bad that happens to the poor, the uneducated, the unemployed is their own fault for their laziness, lack of ambition and stupidity starts to wear thin. We all know you guys think the economy here is great, life is good, the city if brimming with opportunity and only the negative, lazy, inflexible slackers are suffering. Whenever anyone dares mention the reality of long time small businesses dissapearing from a particular area, businesses which nationally make up 80% of total employment, it suddenly becomes their fault for not figuring out 15 years ago that e-commerce was going to wipe them out?! That they should have recognized that chains buying from China would soon make them appear crappy and old fashioned?! They should have seen that cheap, poorly made products and poor service were the wave of the future and jumped on the wagon!?

Maybe your right. I'm on the wrong forum. Keep preaching the gospel of Ed Meese. Now you can go back to your regular (fox) programming.

[AMP]

Learn something new everyday.  Thanks for the information on the rest of the story of the so-called unemployment numbers provided by our Government that can not seem to do much of anything accuratly or within budget.  

As with most information coming from the Government lately, sounds as if it depends on what administration is in office, and who has access to the final master file as to how the final numbers are tallied and reported on the spread sheet at the end of the day.  

At least the UI benefit numbers are much closer to an exact number than the system described in this report.  

I submit their samples are skewed if they conduct the interviews of the households by phone.  Many people today have cell phones, which are unlisted in phone directories.  I did not read where they said they obtained the phone numbers, but one would assume they come from telephone directories, which do not list many cell phone numbers.

Majorities of unemployed folks I have known do not have a home phone. That and cable TV are two of the first luxuries to be dropped to survive a lay off or business closing.  

"...Interviewed by phone through two central data collection facilities. (Prior to 1994, the interviews were conducted using a paper questionnaire which had to be mailed in by the interviewers each month.)"

I can totally understand why they dropped the mail questionnaire in 1994.  Anyone that has sent direct mail in the past few years with a mailing list that is more than 6 months old knows they will have around a 40% return of moved left no forwarding or forwarding address expired as they are only good for six months.