Riverside Shooting

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by Hawkins


Some people consider this, while others prefer to behave like sheep in the pasture. Law enforcement, (our shepherd) with its communication and coordination abilities is the best its ever been in history, but that doesn't mean you are safe from any situation.

By the same token gun ownership is not a panacea.  In fact, are not residents of households with gun owners 7x more likely to die by that gun than the gen pop?  Gun owners, do your loved ones a favor and fire a warning shot.

All I am saying is give Chance a piece.

[DM]

quote:Originally posted by Hawkins

LOL, more like denial, I'd say. Throughout the entire history of mankind... even our hunter/gatherer days, its been a risky proposition to wander about unarmed.

Some may think we've evolved past that point, but I'm not seeing any evidence of that. Your personal safety and that of your family is ultimately your responsibility.

Some people consider this, while others prefer to behave like sheep in the pasture. Law enforcement, (our shepherd) with its communication and coordination abilities is the best its ever been in history, but that doesn't mean you are safe from any situation.

I do sincerely hope that you are able to live out your life as a sheep in a peaceful pasture, DM. As for me, I'll live in what you consider a state of fear, and what I call a state of awareness.

Well I think you are in denial about your fear. lol! We could go round and round about this issue. You may feel safer with a gun at your side. I don't. Never will. I know how to defend myself and those around me without a gun. If someone pulls a gun on me, what help will it have for me to have a gun? Well, I guess both of us dead is better right? My dad never carried a gun while I was growing up and guess what, we never found ourselves in a situation where we needed one. The fact is that you and I and many others will go on about our life and will most likely never end up in a situation where we will need a gun. How many murders are there in Tulsa for example? According to tulsapolice.org there was 56 murders in Tulsa last year. Population of Tulsa is approximately 393,907. Now, I am sure if we break those murders down some we will find that some were unfortunately kids and of course the useless gang killings. So I wonder what my chances of being murdered are since I do not hang around gangs and I am most certainly not a child that cannot defend myself. So as you see, I do not see that I should fear or deny myself that I NEED to carry a gun everywhere I go. It seems I more likely to get a car wreck and die then someone assault me. Maybe people should start putting cannons on their car to defend themselves.

Back to the issue. My whole point is that this guy is going to get off for killing someone in the name of self defense and yet Badgwell was prosecuted and ultimately pleaded no contest for doing the same thing. How is that fair justice? That is my issue with this. Again.

[MichaelC]

As far as I can remember, and Conan may know better, the DA didn't touch Badgewell.  The DA determined the evidence wasn't strong enough to prosecute.  Which means, essentially, IF all things are equal, if the DA doesn't touch Gumm he'd be using the same yardstick.  Therefore, from the DA's perspective, it would be equal treatment.

The descrepancy would then be a "public uproar" in the Badgewell case which lead to a Grand Jury, which Gumm hasn't had so far.  I don't think the DA had anything to do with the Grand Jury, don't know that for sure, all I remember about the Grand Jury is that Badgewell did get some version of time.

[Conan71]

Pure speculation DM, and at this point apples and oranges.  

If the DA refuses to prosecute, Turney's family can do the same thing the Howard family did, circulate a petition and get it before a grand jury.  If they fail to indict, then you can blame your peers for a lack of justice.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Pure speculation DM, and at this point apples and oranges.  

If the DA refuses to prosecute, Turney's family can do the same thing the Howard family did, circulate a petition and get it before a grand jury.  If they fail to indict, then you can blame your peers for a lack of justice.

Rest easy everyone, I've never seen a grand jury who didn't indict somebody.  

Badgewell did get indicted because the family got the case before a grand jury. He later plead out.

However, in my humble opinion, if he would have had any money to hire an attorney, he probably would have been acquitted.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

However, in my humble opinion, if he would have had any money to hire an attorney, he probably would have been acquitted.

Yup.  And the DA knew that.  Even with a public defender facing the DA in a jury trial, a conviction would have been a stretch under those circumstances.

When that Badgewell deal came up the first several times, I was about the only one on this board defending the DA.  The DA shouldn't make decisions based on whether or not a family or a lynch mob likes it.  And he didn't.  The DA made the right decision in Badgewell, and I'm sure he'll make the right decision on this case too.

[tim huntzinger]

Lynch mob? Do not boggart that fatty, MC!  By golly I wish there were a lynch mob that gave a crap, and I wish Shawn had gone in with a .357 instead of brass knuckles.

Harris made the immoral decision which placed more Tulsans at risk.  Again, Badgewell was so mentally ill that he was in Parkside two weeks before Shawn's murder.  He beat a helpless man in the head with a pipe after that man was on the ground.

Harris is more concerned with keeping the 'W' and 'L' columns in his favor than about pursuing justice.  So if one is judging right and wrong about whether a conviction is likely he made the right decision.  Either way Badgewell would have been found incompetent or in the right, but at least he would have been off the streets in the midst of his murderous psychosis.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger
By the same token gun ownership is not a panacea.  In fact, are not residents of households with gun owners 7x more likely to die by that gun than the gen pop?  Gun owners, do your loved ones a favor and fire a warning shot.

Wish Shawn went in with a .357?  What happened to gun ownership not being a panacea?

As I remember, Shawn and Josh were trying to "clear the area" for the Deadtown car show happening the next day an hour or so after the bar had closed for the night.  They picked a two on one fight while in possession of an illegal weapon.  Ostensibly, Badgewell found the piece of pipe after he was being attacked, IOW- he was unarmed when he was accosted.

They could have just gone back in the bar and locked up or gotten in a car and left.  Instead, they chose to harass a mentally-ill homeless guy who likely wouldn't have even still been in the area the next day.

It's terrible what happened to Shawn, but he made a poor choice as do many people whose life is ended in a sudden and tragic manner.

Now does it bother me that a troubled person like Badgewell is walking free?  Yes.  But there are laws which give him that right.  I can't say I agree with them, but they are what they are.

[MichaelC]

Yeah, your right.  Shawn could have just walked out his door, shot Badgewell in the face just for fun, called it self defense, and who'd have known better?  We are in Tulsa after all, and the only we people hate more than Mexicans are the homeless.

And maybe Badgewell, who was attacked by Shawn, should have taken care of the one survivor as well.  Would have solved his problem.

[Hawkins]

quote:Originally posted by DM

quote:Originally posted by Hawkins

LOL, more like denial, I'd say. Throughout the entire history of mankind... even our hunter/gatherer days, its been a risky proposition to wander about unarmed.

Some may think we've evolved past that point, but I'm not seeing any evidence of that. Your personal safety and that of your family is ultimately your responsibility.

Some people consider this, while others prefer to behave like sheep in the pasture. Law enforcement, (our shepherd) with its communication and coordination abilities is the best its ever been in history, but that doesn't mean you are safe from any situation.

I do sincerely hope that you are able to live out your life as a sheep in a peaceful pasture, DM. As for me, I'll live in what you consider a state of fear, and what I call a state of awareness.

Well I think you are in denial about your fear. lol! We could go round and round about this issue. You may feel safer with a gun at your side. I don't. Never will. I know how to defend myself and those around me without a gun. If someone pulls a gun on me, what help will it have for me to have a gun? Well, I guess both of us dead is better right? My dad never carried a gun while I was growing up and guess what, we never found ourselves in a situation where we needed one. The fact is that you and I and many others will go on about our life and will most likely never end up in a situation where we will need a gun. How many murders are there in Tulsa for example? According to tulsapolice.org there was 56 murders in Tulsa last year. Population of Tulsa is approximately 393,907. Now, I am sure if we break those murders down some we will find that some were unfortunately kids and of course the useless gang killings. So I wonder what my chances of being murdered are since I do not hang around gangs and I am most certainly not a child that cannot defend myself. So as you see, I do not see that I should fear or deny myself that I NEED to carry a gun everywhere I go. It seems I more likely to get a car wreck and die then someone assault me. Maybe people should start putting cannons on their car to defend themselves.

Back to the issue. My whole point is that this guy is going to get off for killing someone in the name of self defense and yet Badgwell was prosecuted and ultimately pleaded no contest for doing the same thing. How is that fair justice? That is my issue with this. Again.

I think the other case cannot be compared to this one, it was an entirely different situation.

Once a fight starts, you are not supposed to hit someone after they've fallen to the ground. Is this what the homeless guy did to the bar owner?

I don't know the specifics, but if that is close to what happened, then it isn't self defense once you've won the fight if you continue to beat someone to death.

[Hawkins]

quote:Originally posted by daddys little squirt


Guns have their place but if you think you're safer with cc in OK, well we all have our little fantasies. Statistics argue against that. If we're sheep, maybe you're a chicken hawk.

LOL, Perhaps I am!

I just don't want to be at a stranger's mercy. The recent case in Tennessee with the carjacked couple comes to mind. Its pretty gruesome, so I'll leave out the specifics.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Hawkins

Once a fight starts, you are not supposed to hit someone after they've fallen to the ground. Is this what the homeless guy did to the bar owner?

I don't know the specifics, but if that is close to what happened, then it isn't self defense once you've won the fight if you continue to beat someone to death.

Not supposed to, but adrenaline takes over.  If you've ever been in a fist fight you know what I'm talking about.  

He may have thought he was still subduing Shawn, but the description of the injuries would lead any reasonable person to realize they'd been successful in subduing their attacker.

[MichaelC]

Eh, Badgewell may have been crazy.  But I'm sure Shawn and his buddy didn't take "crazy" into account when they started lurking around at night with their brass knuckles beating up on homeless people.  

It's sad, but Scott and friend could have avoided it all together.  Most reasonable would have, that's why this doesn't happen all the time.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Traffic causes conflict.

Guns resolve conflict?

UNEV, a possible practical solution for traffic congestion? Any thoughts? I've seen more scooters and bikes on Tulsa's roadways now than I ever have.

[MichaelC]

From KOTV

quote:If you ask him he knows exactly how long it's been. Nine days ago Kenneth Gumm shot and killed a man at the River Parks near 21st and Riverside in Tulsa. It's been called a case of road rage, but Gumm says that's only half right. The News On 6's Steve Berg spoke with Gumm who says there was no rage on his part. He reports Gumm says he was only defending himself from Dale Turney, but he says he still feels bad about what happened.

"I'm sorry for him and I'm sorry for his family, but I don't know what else I could have done," Kenneth Gumm said.

Kenneth Gumm says he's speaking out because he's concerned the public, and especially Dale Turney's family, has misconceptions about him and what happened that day in a River Parks parking lot. For one thing, he says he was turning into the parking lot to listen to a band playing at the River's Edge restaurant, not to initiate a confrontation with Turney. In fact, he says he wasn't aware Turney was mad at him until he was going into the lot, and he says Turney yelled at him and continued on down Riverside.

"Whatever I did, or he perceived that I did, to set him off I have no idea," Gumm said.

He says he got out of his car to head for the restaurant when Turney's car pulled in, blocking his. He says Turney got out and looked angry.

"And the first thing he said was 'You're history,' and I pulled my gun out and pointed it at him and I thought that would deescalate the situation, but it didn't. He just kept coming," said Gumm.

Gumm says Turney backed him around his car two or perhaps three times. He says Turney accused him of tailgating and said "You don't mess with me." He says Turney caught up to him and shoved him, and he says that's when he shot Turney in the chest.

"People have asked me was there anything else I could have done, I don't think there is," Gumm said. "My car was locked, he was right on me all the time, there's no way I could have gotten in my car. With my health issues, it was the best I could do just to keep away from him as long as I did."

Gumm hasn't changed his mind about carrying a gun, or what could have happened if he didn't have it.

"I think I could have been hurt very badly. He's 20 years younger than me, he was pretty big, I don't think he was especially tall, but he looked like he was pretty heavy, pretty stocky to me," said Gumm.

The District Attorney's office is still reviewing the case to see if any charges should be filed. Gumm says witnesses at the scene will back up his story.