Good Bye Civic Center

[Hometown]

Ms. Mayor, I’m a fan and I’d vote for you again but you are wrong about taking City Hall away from Civic Center.  You are talking about the end of civic center.

You base your whole argument on savings but what you haven’t factored in is what you are about to throw away:  A huge investment in a major public facility – Civic Center.

To determine the dollar amount of what you are throwing away you would have to calculate the cost of assembling a large tract of land in downtown Tulsa and construction of six major public buildings.

Let’s face it, Tulsa wouldn’t have a hope and a prayer of creating a civic center today because we don’t have the resources that my parent’s generation enjoyed.

The new digs you want would be well suited for the city’s back offices but frankly it is not an appropriate structure for a public building.  There are “no” public spaces there.  The security is sadly lacking.  There is no “nexus” of people doing government work in the area.  I’ll grant you, it’s pretty, new and shiny, but that isn’t enough.

Ms. Mayor, not being from Tulsa probably diminishes your sense of ownership in the investments made by prior generations of Tulsans.  I was here and I’m very unhappy about what you are doing.  Can’t you just gussy up the old place and do your bit for Tulsa’s history?

I’m one of your troops, Ms. Mayor, but you are dead wrong on this issue.  Let me help save your legacy.  You are about to be tagged, “The Mayor that Destroyed Civic Center.”

[Wrinkle]

Well said and right on!
Every Tulsan should be outraged.

This is a major ideallogical delusion.

[Conan71]

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"Buh-bye"

[ttownclown]

Civic Center = Hot concrete wasteland

[sgrizzle]

Just because it's a huge investment doesn't mean we should keep it. If you think it's so valuable, go make them an offer.

[cannon_fodder]

I am still reserved on the move: I like the money savings, I understand the convenience of having all services in one location, and I think it MIGHT have a positive impact on office space downtown.  However, I also fear the old city hall will just sit empty along with the other buildings we are abandoning and/or the city will find uses for them and just add space instead of replace it, or that the savings will not materialize, etc.

The civic center or forum is indeed a wasteland.  It is about as inviting as the dry bed of the Arkansas River in August but instead of rotting fish add bums.  I think it would have been really nice if done well (or kept up to date).  But currently, it stands as a loser.

Find a firm use/tenant for the old city hall, then I'll bite.  Otherwise, I think I'm a no.  I cannot buy a new house and move in until I sell my old one, neither should my government.

[Steve]

I think Hometown makes some very valid points.  The current civic center complex brings together the city hall, county courthouse, city convention center & library, all joined by an open plaza.  The present state of this complex is sad, but we only have to look into a mirror to find someone to blame.  Prior to construction of this complex in the early 1960's, all of Tulsa's government offices were small and scattered throughout downtown.  This complex, Tulsa's first and only true "civic center," brought everything together in a convenient place.  Its current state of disrepair is solely the fault of Tulsa's elected officials and citizens over the past 20+ years.  Properly restored and maintained, I think the current civic center complex would be just fine and a great architectural record of mid-twentieth century Tulsa.

I guess it is just the American Way to build nice public facilities with public funds, trash and neglect them over the years, and then sell them off or raze them for something new.

I can see it all now.  50 years from now, Tulsa leaders and "young professionals" will be clamoring for the demolition of that ugly, rusty hulk, once called the BOK arena built in the ancient days of 2007.  They will want to knock that neglected, rusty piece of junk down and replace it with a stucco replica of the Roman Coliseum.  To the tune of about $1 billion in public funds, I am sure.

[Conan71]

Steve,

Why does any of this nor your prediction of the future of the BOK center surprise me?  

Anything maintained by the city is ugly and falling apart.[xx(]

We have never had a history of maintaining or improving upon what we have before we go on to our next big to-be-negleted-in-the-future project.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Steve,

Why does any of this nor your prediction of the future of the BOK center surprise me?  

Anything maintained by the city is ugly and falling apart.[xx(]

We have never had a history of maintaining or improving upon what we have before we go on to our next big to-be-negleted-in-the-future project.

Maybe it is just human nature to neglect the past and build new monuments to ourselves.  In any event, I agree with Hometown's original post.  I think that given the cost of purchasing the newer building and the cost of the relocations, the City could restore the present Civic Center complex and public areas to their former intent and beauty, perhaps making them even better in the process, and preserve a historic piece of Tulsa's recent past.  Just my opinion.

[Markk]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Ms. Mayor, I’m a fan and I’d vote for you again but you are wrong about taking City Hall away from Civic Center.  You are talking about the end of civic center.

You base your whole argument on savings but what you haven’t factored in is what you are about to throw away:  A huge investment in a major public facility – Civic Center.

To determine the dollar amount of what you are throwing away you would have to calculate the cost of assembling a large tract of land in downtown Tulsa and construction of six major public buildings.

Let’s face it, Tulsa wouldn’t have a hope and a prayer of creating a civic center today because we don’t have the resources that my parent’s generation enjoyed.

The new digs you want would be well suited for the city’s back offices but frankly it is not an appropriate structure for a public building.  There are “no” public spaces there.  The security is sadly lacking.  There is no “nexus” of people doing government work in the area.  I’ll grant you, it’s pretty, new and shiny, but that isn’t enough.

Ms. Mayor, not being from Tulsa probably diminishes your sense of ownership in the investments made by prior generations of Tulsans.  I was here and I’m very unhappy about what you are doing.  Can’t you just gussy up the old place and do your bit for Tulsa’s history?

I’m one of your troops, Ms. Mayor, but you are dead wrong on this issue.  Let me help save your legacy.  You are about to be tagged, “The Mayor that Destroyed Civic Center.”

Aside from being in abysmal shape, the Civic Center is just an ugly, cement wasteland that offers passerbys no incentive to stop, relax, or spend money on the local economy.

[Markk]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Ms. Mayor, I’m a fan and I’d vote for you again but you are wrong about taking City Hall away from Civic Center.  You are talking about the end of civic center.

You base your whole argument on savings but what you haven’t factored in is what you are about to throw away:  A huge investment in a major public facility – Civic Center.

To determine the dollar amount of what you are throwing away you would have to calculate the cost of assembling a large tract of land in downtown Tulsa and construction of six major public buildings.

Let’s face it, Tulsa wouldn’t have a hope and a prayer of creating a civic center today because we don’t have the resources that my parent’s generation enjoyed.

The new digs you want would be well suited for the city’s back offices but frankly it is not an appropriate structure for a public building.  There are “no” public spaces there.  The security is sadly lacking.  There is no “nexus” of people doing government work in the area.  I’ll grant you, it’s pretty, new and shiny, but that isn’t enough.

Ms. Mayor, not being from Tulsa probably diminishes your sense of ownership in the investments made by prior generations of Tulsans.  I was here and I’m very unhappy about what you are doing.  Can’t you just gussy up the old place and do your bit for Tulsa’s history?

I’m one of your troops, Ms. Mayor, but you are dead wrong on this issue.  Let me help save your legacy.  You are about to be tagged, “The Mayor that Destroyed Civic Center.”

I AM talking about the Civic Center; not to be confused with the equally unappealing surface lots around downtown (particularly around TCC and FBC).  It's easy to confuse them all.

[Double A]

Hometown is dead right on this one, not to mention that consolidating all city services in one building is just plain stupid in the post 9/11 era.

[TheArtist]

Just so I know, what does the city hall have to do with the civic center? (  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:civic+center&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title  ) And why is it more important that they be next to each other than  city offices?  Aren't there other things that can be just as appropriate to be in a civic center? I think the Civic Center and the City Hall can be seen as seperate entities, both in need of work.  

I actually like the architecture of the old city hall.  I think it is a large and very prominent example of a time in history. Some say it is not a very good example, that I can't really argue with until someone shows me better similar ones.  It may be that it could be "enhanced".

 However this does bring up the fact that the building is going to need big money to be repaired and updated.  Frankly the whole plaza needs to be cleaned up and completely remodeled, that includes the buildings around it like the courthouse and library.  But here again, this is going to cost big money on top of what refurbishing city hall would require. I would rather not leave things as they are, run down and ugly, and just fixing the City Hall building won't do it if its sitting in the middle of butt ugly. In other words, its gonna take some serious money to get things up to snuff. Perhaps we should give voters several options. 1. Just Move city hall and don't fix the civic center. 2. Stay and fix the old City Hall and the other city buildings, and dont fix the Civic Center 3. Stay fix the old city hall, other buildings and redo the Civic Center.  

Our civic center certainly does not stack up to how other civic centers look in similar or larger sized cities. If your going to have a civic center do it right and make it a real, usable and inviting area, whether its with or without a City Hall as part of it.  

http://governing.typepad.com/13thfloor/2005/11/is_this_the_cit.html

Seattle Civic Center and City Hall


Shot at 2007-06-24

Denver Civic Center  


Shot at 2007-06-24

[Wilbur]

You can't tell me they couldn't find an independent consultant to come in and make an independent recommendation!  

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070624_1_A1_spanc31224

They only used someone who stands to make a ton of money off the move.  That is not independent.  It certainly does not bode well for the Mayor, who decided her first day in office that City Hall was moving.

[ifsandbuts]

"...Mayor, who decided her first day in office that City Hall was moving."

That's a bad thing? I think an awful lot of people walk into that building for the first time and think City Hall should be moved.

Thank goodness she wasn't yet another elected official who walked into a ridiculously ugly, non-functional, poorly planned, depresssing, unhealthy, unwelcoming building and just assumed that was all Tulsa deserved or was capable of.

I've said this before and will say it again: Have any of you who are defending the current City Hall actually spent any amount of time there? I have, literally, NEVER seen a City Hall as bad as Tulsa's, in any size community I have ever been in. It was an ugly, non-functional piece of crap building when it was built -- renovation ain't gonna fix that.