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Author Topic: Good Bye Civic Center  (Read 27933 times)
TheArtist
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« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2007, 08:41:49 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Hometown

Saw my City Hall mole over the holiday.  Apparently staffers do not support the move.  They want to stay in current city hall where they have offices.  In proposed location they would only have cubes.  So this looks to be a plan that was originated at the top.

There are other alternatives being studied including staying put.





The times I have had to go to any city offices gave me the feeling that many of these people do not need to be in offices. To easy to slack.  I think they can be worked harder and more consistently in cubicles. Perhaps even get rid of a few people and streamline things a bit. Some of those offices were messes. You can tell the differences between government jobs and corporate ones at a glance. They didnt look as if they were working with any earnest immediacy. It looked as if they had moved into homey, slow paced, little nests...to stay.  I think the whole system of city gov. could be more efficiently managed and supervised at the new city hall.  Perhaps thats a bit of what those staffers are afraid of? Plus there are many other reasons why corporations design their office floors the way they do. Easier, faster, communication and idea exchange is one.
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"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
swake
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« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2007, 06:10:48 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Hometown

Swake, I have a background in art and in my opinion Tulsa's Civic Center is beautiful.  It provides a striking terminus for 5th Street.  Its public spaces are many and impressive.

We have a classic Mid Century Modern Civic Center.  Taken in its entirety, our Civic Center has great esthetic and historic value.

Where were you when the city tore down the Will Rogers or the Delman or the Brook?  Where were you when the city allowed small business owners to destroy 15th between Utica and Lewis?  Were you looking the other way when the city and small business owners destroyed South Denver?  Did you call it preservation when the city tore down most of the Old Warehouse Market and built a Home Depot beside it?  Did you call it progress when the city tore down its historic old library near T.U.?  

I haven’t even started.

Tulsa has many virtues but preserving her historic buildings and neighborhoods is not one of them.

Let’s not throw away any more of Tulsa’s important history.





I can appreciate your background, and I hope you can appreciate that I spent my first two years in college as a Architecture major until I came across a decidedly evil and non-artistic class that went by the dark name of Differential Equations.

Regardless of style the Civic Center is not good architecture. I can very much appreciate other examples of Modern. I happen to think that the buildings at ORU will end up as treasures. And you are insulting a number of great buildings that have been lost by grouping them with that monstrosity called the Civic Center. All cities have lost good buildings, and you weaken the effort to save Tulsa’s large number of remaining architectural treasures by defending worthless and bad buildings. Just because a building is old, does not make it a good building or worth saving.
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waterboy
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« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2007, 08:32:21 am »

quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:
Originally posted by Hometown

Saw my City Hall mole over the holiday.  Apparently staffers do not support the move.  They want to stay in current city hall where they have offices.  In proposed location they would only have cubes.  So this looks to be a plan that was originated at the top.

There are other alternatives being studied including staying put.





The times I have had to go to any city offices gave me the feeling that many of these people do not need to be in offices. To easy to slack.  I think they can be worked harder and more consistently in cubicles. Perhaps even get rid of a few people and streamline things a bit. Some of those offices were messes. You can tell the differences between government jobs and corporate ones at a glance. They didnt look as if they were working with any earnest immediacy. It looked as if they had moved into homey, slow paced, little nests...to stay.  I think the whole system of city gov. could be more efficiently managed and supervised at the new city hall.  Perhaps thats a bit of what those staffers are afraid of? Plus there are many other reasons why corporations design their office floors the way they do. Easier, faster, communication and idea exchange is one.



Slackers. Messy offices. Efficiency. Work Harder! Fear. Streamlining.  Damn! You would have loved business school. Those are words they have tattooed on their asses as freshmen. Criticizing govt. workers is so easy and common. Can't go wrong there.

Watching the movie "Office Space" was an accurate representation of the corporates I've worked for and around. They looked better dressed than govt. workers but behaved the same way at all levels, regardless of whether they were in the bullpen, the cubicle or the suite. Apparently you think human beings under the government umbrella are different species than under the corporate umbrella. With the exception that motivation is more inspired, the main differences are you have fewer protections as an employee and make significantly more money under corporate.

How dare they put pictures of their children and dogs next to plants on the taxpayers property! If it weren't for these $7.50hr menial jobs that allow a little homey cubicle or desk area, where would the poorly educated, culturally deprived, single head of households work? Did you know that many County employees also qualify for food stamps?

I hope you didn't mean to sound so uncompassionate. I get bothered by judgements rendered from different disciplins. I wouldn't  pass judgement on an artists work or the importance of saving mid century modern buildings having only had a couple art history courses.

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TheArtist
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« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2007, 08:58:58 am »

Actually I think your right about a lot of corporate work spaces, but not all. When I hear about some of the shenanigans that go on in some of those places from some of my friends I think, "Boy that company wont last long with that kind of work ethic." And often I am right. Its just natural that if another competing company works harder, faster and smarter than you,,, there is a good chance you are not going to have your job long. Plus I suppose a lot of my perspective comes from my background, mom was a workaholic, my military experience and from having worked for years at UPS with someone standing over me with a stop watch, then me becoming a supervisor and standing over others with one and yelling, pick up the pace! move! lol. Or as one of my drill seargents was fond of saying "a**holes and elbows! thats all I want to see! move it! move it! move it!. No I don't think they would like me at city hall one bit. [Tongue]  
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"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
Hometown
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« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2007, 09:09:44 am »

Get your architecture text books out Swake.  You and me gonna have an art fight.  More to follow.

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waterboy
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« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2007, 09:54:35 am »

quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist

 Or as one of my drill seargents was fond of saying "a**holes and elbows! thats all I want to see! move it! move it! move it!.  




Hell, they may be teaching that in business school now! Can you imagine the sexual harrassment lawsuits from that style?[Cheesy]

All in all, self employment has always appealed to me most.
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mr.jaynes
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« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2007, 02:49:05 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy


Watching the movie "Office Space" was an accurate representation of the corporates I've worked for and around. They looked better dressed than govt. workers but behaved the same way at all levels, regardless of whether they were in the bullpen, the cubicle or the suite. Apparently you think human beings under the government umbrella are different species than under the corporate umbrella. With the exception that motivation is more inspired, the main differences are you have fewer protections as an employee and make significantly more money under corporate.
[/quote]

Office Space-it was an instant classic for me, specifically because, at one time, I lived it!
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shadows
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« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2007, 03:52:46 pm »

Will the mayor have one of those little cubes on the first floor?

It could be a good move as the cubes could be used for an another call center as soon as the city finds another new outlet in architectural changes.  This would be a way to pay off the revenue bonds that will be used to buy the building by the authority.

Any suggestion to reduce city employees will not fly under any threats of finding the now hidden employees in the offices of the present city hall.
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2007, 05:03:19 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
You can tell the differences between government jobs and corporate ones at a glance.



I completely disagree.

I promise you I have been in more government offices than you. I currently do work for 12 different governments...from Glenpool to EPA.

I also regularly go into the offices of almost all the large employers in town and most of the big educational institutions. I have also been in the corporate offices of Coca Cola, Time magazine and Nabisco foods in the last few months. There are slackers, goof-offs and workaholics in every situation.

If I had to characterize the difference in a general way, the private sector office environment has more problems because of the opportunities to be rewarded can lead to unscrupulous behavior. The public sector has more problems because most of their mission can never be solved by them in their lifetime.

They (the public sector) work to keep the streets safe, the water clean, and the trash picked up. They don't have easy jobs like paintings pretty pictures (sorry, it was too easy).

They rarely receive any notice at all unless the problem increase or they mess up. They also see their screw-ups put in the paper while the private sector just moves on.
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TheArtist
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« Reply #84 on: July 07, 2007, 05:42:42 pm »

Ok ok, I was being prejudiced and wrong.  Kind a new it when I said that but blathered it out there anyway. BUT lol, I still think there are benefits to productivity when you can check everyone out when they are in their cubicles versus them being in offices. Also I personally find I draw energy from those around me in a lively busy environment, when I am couped up alone in a place I tend to mentally drift and lose energy.  

And hey, watch the artist comments! Painting is a lot of mental work and stress. You have to please the client, figure out where things should be placed, relative sizes, how light or dark they should be, the balance of color and composition, the over all feel, every brush stroke every leaf has to be thought out and it all has to be done on time and on budget. If you mess up you dont eat or get the bills paid or have the money to pay the people who work for you. Working evenings coming up with designs, going to meetings before and after work and on weekends. Worse yet you have to GET work. Imagine going to a job interview every single week or so and trying to convince the person to hire you. Imagine not having any work. Suddenly having 5 decorators and different builders calling you all at once for some parade of homes thing at the last moment and not able to do them all. Then a few weeks later with a lump in your stomach because you dont have any more work lined up. You always have to push to be better and do a good job or the other artist will be eating and not you. Not to mention try budgeting when you don't even know how much money your going to make the next month or sometimes next week. Yep its a picnic alright.  Not like some posh government job. [Tongue]
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"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
swake
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« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2007, 10:29:50 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Hometown

Get your architecture text books out Swake.  You and me gonna have an art fight.  More to follow.





Warren Petroleum Building good. The First Place Tower is decent, it's actually more International than Modern, but has elements of both, so does City Hall.

City Hall is really bad, no matter the style. The base is ok, but the textures throughout are a mess and above the first floor it's really bad.

The Council building is actually ok, and I like the Library. The Police Courts building is another awful mess like City Hall. The County building, both the original and the annex are both bad.

The plaza area is like something bad out of Logan's Run. It's complete disconection from anything natural or soft is what kills most open areas from that era. The Plaza outside of the First Place Tower is a little better, but still very bad and for all the same reason.

And the real public area is inside the parking garage underneath. The "public" rarely ventures up onto the plaza. The worst part of the design is that buildings are entered from the garage, and under the plaza there isn't even an attempt to make anything be of aesthetic value.  

The Civic Center is bad, really bad.
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2007, 09:26:38 pm »

I could never work in a cubicle nor could I ever hang from a scaffolding holding a brush.

I am quite content collecting beverage cans out of the trash.
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Double A
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« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2007, 11:06:41 am »

quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael

quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
You can tell the differences between government jobs and corporate ones at a glance.



I completely disagree.

I promise you I have been in more government offices than you. I currently do work for 12 different governments...from Glenpool to EPA.

I also regularly go into the offices of almost all the large employers in town and most of the big educational institutions. I have also been in the corporate offices of Coca Cola, Time magazine and Nabisco foods in the last few months. There are slackers, goof-offs and workaholics in every situation.

If I had to characterize the difference in a general way, the private sector office environment has more problems because of the opportunities to be rewarded can lead to unscrupulous behavior. The public sector has more problems because most of their mission can never be solved by them in their lifetime.

They (the public sector) work to keep the streets safe, the water clean, and the trash picked up. They don't have easy jobs like paintings pretty pictures (sorry, it was too easy).

They rarely receive any notice at all unless the problem increase or they mess up. They also see their screw-ups put in the paper while the private sector just moves on.

 BTW, the city hall move will be a clusterf#*ck of epic proportions that Tulsa will not recover from for many, many years.
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Hometown
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« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2007, 07:41:03 pm »

Okay, here it is high noon and I’ve challenged Swake to a fight over Civic Center.  I love Civic Center.  I mean I love Civic Center’s past and its potential.  I think City Hall belongs in Civic Center.  He doesn't.

Tulsa’s Civic Center reminds me of Brasilia.  You know, the Modern capital of Brazil.  









Our Civic Center is Modern like Brasilia.  They call it Mid-Century Modernism and it’s popular with the in crowd.  But even the in crowd doesn't care for fountains without water:



Of course, it’s not Civic Center’s fault that Tulsa forgot the first rule of economy.  TAKE CARE OF WHAT YOU HAVE.

Oh I know people like things that are shiny and new.  Well with a little bit of elbow grease and a few million from the feds, Tulsa’s Civic Center could be as fine and shiny as it was on the day that our fathers first saw their investment in Tulsa’s future.



Tell me our library isn’t a beauty.



And there’s nothing wrong with the county court house that a good steam cleaning couldn’t cure.



Look at how the buildings line the common plaza and Fifth Street terminates in the Maxwell Convention Center.  Look at how the architect played with light.  Look at how city hall stands apart and seems to rise out of the plaza.

What you don’t see is the Federal Building to the north or the State Building behind the Convention Center.

Check out what Cynthia Nikitin said about civic centers.

“Traditionally, the center of most cities has been a “commons,” a civic space built according to democratic principles.  The commons may be a historic commercial square, as in Madison, Wisconsin, or it may be a mall (in the original sense), like the ones that grace San Francisco’s City Hall and the U.S. Capitol.  In almost every case, major public and cultural institutions are located around the commons, forming a civic center of enormous practical and symbolic importance.”

What’s the big deal with Civic Spaces?  I mean what’s in it for me?  Here's what the Project for Public Spaces says:

“Civic Spaces are an extension of the community.  When they work well, they serve as a stage for our public lives.  If they function in their true civic role, they can be the settings where celebrations are held, where exchanges both social and economic take place, where friends run into each other, and where cultures mix.  They are the ‘front porches’ of public institutions – post offices, courthouses, federal office buildings – where we can interact with each other and with government. …”

Busy and full of life and beautiful.  That’s how I see our Civic Center plaza.  Busy with lunch time brown baggers, and free concerts and farmers markets and public gatherings.  Imagine Modern sculpture, food stands, an outdoor café and sun and people taking a break and people doing business.  Mothers pushing strollers and old folks playing checkers and young folks with room to breathe.

So we have something of value.  Already paid for.  All we need to do is restore it.

And we aren’t alone.  Denver faced the same issues and decided to renew her civic center.  Now she has embarked on a major overhaul of her civic center.  

Fort Worth recently created a civic center out a collection of unconnected government buildings and streets.  Both Denver and Fort Worth have received generous help from the feds.

Oh I know.  Senator Inhofe and Senator Coburn have more important things to do than obtain federal funding for Oklahoma.  But where there’s a will there’s a way and a federal program.  Check out the publication – Federal Spaces, Civic Places.

I’ll end with Marin County’s Civic Center.  They are famous for their Modern Civic Center.  We could be too.





CITY HALL BELONGS IN CIVIC CENTER



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TulsaSooner
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« Reply #89 on: July 10, 2007, 06:49:48 am »

Wait...which side of the argument are those pics supposed to be supporting?  City Hall is, by far, the ugliest of all the Civic Center buildings.
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