Yoot Pastor Shoots Petty Criminal

[rhymnrzn]

Christian ministers packing pistols.  God will judge.

[Conan71]

Really, if you think about it, that Gumm fellow had less of a reason to shoot the other guy in Riverparks than the Rev. did.  Unless Turney's buddies had exited the car and were surrounding him, he could have kept backing over to the cafe and into the crowd which is usually there at the River's Edge.  That would have likely dispersed that situation.  Judging from where he showed the TV types where he parked.

Two things which usually, not always, work as a deterrent for crime: crowds and armed people.

Again, Waterboy, protecting your property (or property which is entrusted to you) and defending yourself is not looking for trouble any more than a homeowner keeping a gun under the mattress.  He figured being there was deterrence for thieves, just in case that wasn't enough, he armed himself.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

You guys are crackpots.  I hope you people get the opportunity to exercise your "holy than thou" attitudes when someone is preparing to kick the sh!t out you or one of your kids.  I wonder how you'll enjoy your high horse attitude after a nice beating?  I'll take my chances with a firearm if I'm sitting on cash in the middle of nowhere, especially in Muskogee, thanks...

The best parts of this discussion are the people who think that criminals are suddenly going to start carrying guns, as if this would be a new development in world of criminal activity.

This just devolves into absurdity.  You can make the exact same argument against even fighting back with fists.  Thug attacks kids, and pastor fights back with fists, detering said thug.  Thug learns to take a knife to the next robbery to ensure he wins.

How is that silly scenario any different?  Would you have suggested he allow the idiot to finish with the kid and move onto him next?

You people amaze me.

Reading between the lines from the OP this is nothing more than a pathetic half-a$$ed opportunity to bash a Christian for something the OP feels as "un-Christian."  It has nothing to do with self defense.

From one crackpot to another, welcome to my ignore list.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Sorry, but I'm having a problem faulting this guy's actions.

I'm not faulting the guy.  He did what he did, it was legal to do so.  And if his church burns down or if he ends up dead, so be it.  Chances are, he'll be fine.  If he isn't, I don't see where it would be a problem for me.  It wasn't a bright decision, but he made it.  And he had every right to do so.

I won't applaud him.

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by rhymnrzn

Christian ministers packing pistols.

And the Bible prohibits this how?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Really, if you think about it, that Gumm fellow had less of a reason to shoot the other guy in Riverparks than the Rev. did.  Unless Turney's buddies had exited the car and were surrounding him, he could have kept backing over to the cafe and into the crowd which is usually there at the River's Edge.  That would have likely dispersed that situation.  Judging from where he showed the TV types where he parked.

Two things which usually, not always, work as a deterrent for crime: crowds and armed people.

Again, Waterboy, protecting your property (or property which is entrusted to you) and defending yourself is not looking for trouble any more than a homeowner keeping a gun under the mattress.  He figured being there was deterrence for thieves, just in case that wasn't enough, he armed himself.

We will have to agree to disagree on that. Unfortunately for all involved his motivations for going there with a gun will likely be decided by others in the DA's office or civil court. I just don't remember reading about a  lot of people being killed in these situations before this law was passed. Do you? It has spurred a belief that a gun is the answer to any low level hostile situations.

Even thirty years ago when one of my neighbors threatened to jump my fence with a rifle and shoot my dog, the officer who came to investigate told me I would easily fulfill the criteria for "justifiable homicide" should I respond by shooting him. I relayed that information to the hothead and the problem dissappeared.

[rhymnrzn]

quote:Originally posted by mr.jaynes

quote:Originally posted by rhymnrzn

Christian ministers packing pistols.

And the Bible prohibits this how?

As Christ walked, so should we.  As he is, so are we in this world..........

[restored2x]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

Not a Tulsan, but this brings out the Christians with guns debate quite nicely.

This guy puts the Riverside shooter to shame.  At what point does a youth pastor decide that bringing a gun to an overnighter is a good idea? Any defenders out there?

Sorry - I'm new here. I wasn't aware of the "Christians with guns debate".

Short refresher, maybe? Or a link?

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Really, if you think about it, that Gumm fellow had less of a reason to shoot the other guy in Riverparks than the Rev. did.  Unless Turney's buddies had exited the car and were surrounding him, he could have kept backing over to the cafe and into the crowd which is usually there at the River's Edge.  That would have likely dispersed that situation.  Judging from where he showed the TV types where he parked.

Two things which usually, not always, work as a deterrent for crime: crowds and armed people.

Again, Waterboy, protecting your property (or property which is entrusted to you) and defending yourself is not looking for trouble any more than a homeowner keeping a gun under the mattress.  He figured being there was deterrence for thieves, just in case that wasn't enough, he armed himself.

We will have to agree to disagree on that. Unfortunately for all involved his motivations for going there with a gun will likely be decided by others in the DA's office or civil court. I just don't remember reading about a  lot of people being killed in these situations before this law was passed. Do you? It has spurred a belief that a gun is the answer to any low level hostile situations.

Even thirty years ago when one of my neighbors threatened to jump my fence with a rifle and shoot my dog, the officer who came to investigate told me I would easily fulfill the criteria for "justifiable homicide" should I respond by shooting him. I relayed that information to the hothead and the problem dissappeared.

I think we are starting past each other.  Which is nothing new. []

My point is, if this guy was really looking to shoot someone, it wouldn't have been lying in wait at a fireworks stand out in the country.  He'd have walked into Taco Bueno or WalMart and started shooting if his intention was to kill someone.

Without being in his shoes it's impossible for you to say that this guy was hoping to shoot someone, which is the implication you are making.  You seem to make the assumption that anyone carrying a firearm legally is doing so with the intention of shooting someone else which is patently false.  You are essentially equating legal gun ownership with predatory behavior.

Given such pandemonium, how did this guy even know whether or not anyone was armed?  I'm guessing maybe he reads too many headlines and has watched "Boyz in the 'hood" a few too many times to, eh Waterboy?  Yeah all that adrelaline must have been the result of deep-seeded racism.

If some whitebread like myself drives up to the 500 block of E. 46th N. or somewhere up there or into the barrio in east Tulsa in the middle of the night with a loaded pistol, then yeah you can say I'm probably looking for trouble.

If a business owner keeps a gun behind his counter and shoots someone in the face when they jump the counter, he's hardly looking for trouble.  Trouble found him and now has an instant lead body piercing.

Fortunately, the DA, who is better trained in the law than any of us, including yourself and myself, will make the decision as to whether or not this guy had a right to protect himself.

The criminals already have the guns.  It's when you hear about random shootings that take innocent law-abiding lives that makes honest people seek out legal gun ownership.

As long as criminals have access to guns, I will continue to enjoy my 2nd amendment right.

[tim huntzinger]

The account from the Phoenix gives a better account than the KOTV link.

Being bum-rushed is a different ball o' wax than just standing by and squeezing off rounds into a large crowd as KOTV reported.  Also, the teen was screaming for help after being assualted behind the tent.

Still seems like we are living in Pottersville when a youth pastor 'needs' a gun to protect explosives the Church is selling.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Really, if you think about it, that Gumm fellow had less of a reason to shoot the other guy in Riverparks than the Rev. did.  Unless Turney's buddies had exited the car and were surrounding him, he could have kept backing over to the cafe and into the crowd which is usually there at the River's Edge.  That would have likely dispersed that situation.  Judging from where he showed the TV types where he parked.

Two things which usually, not always, work as a deterrent for crime: crowds and armed people.

Again, Waterboy, protecting your property (or property which is entrusted to you) and defending yourself is not looking for trouble any more than a homeowner keeping a gun under the mattress.  He figured being there was deterrence for thieves, just in case that wasn't enough, he armed himself.

We will have to agree to disagree on that. Unfortunately for all involved his motivations for going there with a gun will likely be decided by others in the DA's office or civil court. I just don't remember reading about a  lot of people being killed in these situations before this law was passed. Do you? It has spurred a belief that a gun is the answer to any low level hostile situations.

Even thirty years ago when one of my neighbors threatened to jump my fence with a rifle and shoot my dog, the officer who came to investigate told me I would easily fulfill the criteria for "justifiable homicide" should I respond by shooting him. I relayed that information to the hothead and the problem dissappeared.

I think we are starting past each other.  Which is nothing new. []

My point is, if this guy was really looking to shoot someone, it wouldn't have been lying in wait at a fireworks stand out in the country.  He'd have walked into Taco Bueno or WalMart and started shooting if his intention was to kill someone.

Without being in his shoes it's impossible for you to say that this guy was hoping to shoot someone, which is the implication you are making.  You seem to make the assumption that anyone carrying a firearm legally is doing so with the intention of shooting someone else which is patently false.  You are essentially equating legal gun ownership with predatory behavior.

Given such pandemonium, how did this guy even know whether or not anyone was armed?  I'm guessing maybe he reads too many headlines and has watched "Boyz in the 'hood" a few too many times to, eh Waterboy?  Yeah all that adrelaline must have been the result of deep-seeded racism.

If some whitebread like myself drives up to the 500 block of E. 46th N. or somewhere up there or into the barrio in east Tulsa in the middle of the night with a loaded pistol, then yeah you can say I'm probably looking for trouble.

If a business owner keeps a gun behind his counter and shoots someone in the face when they jump the counter, he's hardly looking for trouble.  Trouble found him and now has an instant lead body piercing.

Fortunately, the DA, who is better trained in the law than any of us, including yourself and myself, will make the decision as to whether or not this guy had a right to protect himself.

The criminals already have the guns.  It's when you hear about random shootings that take innocent law-abiding lives that makes honest people seek out legal gun ownership.

As long as criminals have access to guns, I will continue to enjoy my 2nd amendment right.

I'm not against gun ownership at all. I am against any use of a gun until it is a last resort. Somehow many of us have faced hostile situations and managed them without plugging someone. I am just worried that we have opened the gates to subconscious reactions to threats that aren't really there.

One more story and I'll yield. I went over by the projects West of the river on 23rd a few years ago to pick up my son whose alternator had failed and left him in the middle of a parking lot. He absolutely shouldn't have been there. I tried to start it with no success. As it started to get dark the local teens started coming out from their hidey holes. About a dozen of them. Some remarks were made and the young 20 yr old who I brought with me was ready to rumble with them. They started to circle the car. The leader came over and asked who I was, and why I was there besides asking for a cigarette. I spoke to him as I would to any adult including that I don't smoke. I told him we had called a wrecker and the police. I wouldn't let the kid with me exit the car even though he was still game for it. While my son was at the convenience store calling the police on his own, I called the police on my cell, told them my location, the situation and my intentions if it got out of hand. TPD knows this area. They had their sirens on a few blocks away and the kids dispersed. They then (laughingly) gave me an escort as we pushed the car home. I could have shot these punks and gotten away with it. I was somewhat scared, but just as much resolute that they were just kids after-all. Maybe they had a weapon but none showed it.

This pastor had confronted these kids at 2:30am and ran them off. Did he call the police and report a break in and ask for a patrolman? No. He waited and took care of it himself. My fear once again is that this will create a legal vigilantism that we don't want.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

The account from the Phoenix gives a better account than the KOTV link.

Being bum-rushed is a different ball o' wax than just standing by and squeezing off rounds into a large crowd as KOTV reported.  Also, the teen was screaming for help after being assualted behind the tent.

Still seems like we are living in Pottersville when a youth pastor 'needs' a gun to protect explosives the Church is selling.

You need to load the "local media slant filter" which I think works in firefox and IE. The muskogee report reads exactly as I was reading it the whole time, clear self defense without the slightest bit of provocation.

I don't know about christians with guns... I have an mp3 of "cows with guns" which is always fun to listen to.

quote:
..he mooed 'we must fight, escape or we'll die' cows gathered around, 'cuz the steaks were so high... (bad cow pun)

[tim huntzinger]

No doubt! The story is in the telling, and I am shocked at the discrepancies between the Phoenix and KOTV. I hope they sort out some kind of charges for the assailants; I should like to know their plans before I going off again half-cocked, but I wonder if conspiracy to commit murder transpired on the way back to rob the place.  

This man is an all-American hero, and I congratulate him on successfully fending off the forces of evil that came at him and his charge in the dark of the night.  I hope they get rid of the explosives as soon as possible, and make lots of money for the Church of God of Wagoner. Sorry I doubted.  I hope they do not come looking to beat me up.

Why, 71! Even if I saw you leanin' like a cholo I would not think you were looking for trouble.  UNLESS it was 2am and you and five others were planning on jumping me and this kid three-on-one, grabbing the gun and killing us on the spot.  In that instance I would fire a warning shot, command them to stop, and then fire as soon as necessary to keep anything from happening to the kid. I would have to tell his parents what happened, and the Church would hate me, if I survived.  Later, if I was right, and it turns out your crew had actually planned on killing me, I would feel even better about it! (That hypothetical is of course fantasy because 71 would never lean like a cholo at 21&Garnett. For my part, I would secure the explosives better, establish perimeter defenses, use psyops, and make sure the kid was armed, too.)

Holy smokes, H2O! That was a close call!  Good thing you kept your cool!

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy
From one crackpot to another, welcome to my ignore list.

Yeah somehow I doubt you can resist responding to my posts, but good luck with all that.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

The account from the Phoenix gives a better account than the KOTV link.

Being bum-rushed is a different ball o' wax than just standing by and squeezing off rounds into a large crowd as KOTV reported.  Also, the teen was screaming for help after being assualted behind the tent.

Still seems like we are living in Pottersville when a youth pastor 'needs' a gun to protect explosives the Church is selling.

Apparently other news stations in town did a better job reporting this as well.  I never heard the story about him randomly shooting into a crowd.  I heard two stories about him shooting a guy after someone assaulted a child.  Seems like someone at KOTV wanted to make this story into something it wasn't.

I hope their helicopter crashes...oops.