Yoot Pastor Shoots Petty Criminal

[iplaw]

I personally would have fired a warning shot, but who knows what I would do in a situation like that.  The pastor was well within his rights to shoot this moron, and the criminal has no one to blame but himself.  Best not to assault an innocent person, then you don't have to concern yourself with getting shot.

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Of course that guy could have been KO'd by the time the cops got there.  His options were to:

A) Let the thugs keep beating the kid and reach for his cell phone while he was being rushed, then get his donkey kicked, or stabbed, or while he waited for the police to respond.

or

B) Pull his piece and stop the melee before it escalated further.

The police can't be everywhere at once, and can't stake out every podunk fireworks stand, convenience store, or house.  

That's why there are laws which do allow people to defend themselves with a firearm.

It's a matter of meeting force with force and responding appropriately.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Of course that guy could have been KO'd by the time the cops got there.  His options were to:

A) Let the thugs keep beating the kid and reach for his cell phone while he was being rushed, then get his donkey kicked, or stabbed, or while he waited for the police to respond.

or

B) Pull his piece and stop the melee before it escalated further.

The police can't be everywhere at once, and can't stake out every podunk fireworks stand, convenience store, or house.  

That's why there are laws which do allow people to defend themselves with a firearm.

Do you think it would take these punks 30 minutes to whip his donkey? The first break in was at 2:30. He didn't call the police to report it. What, he was being a good guy by not reporting it? Yes, the police know that fireworks stands are easy targets. So do stand operators. That is why they often have a dog nearby, some big guys staying on premises, lighting etc. The police would have staked the place out. When my neighbor was burglarized, the first thing the cop told us was, they'll be back again soon. They were.

I have to agree with MC. There were other ways to deal with this. Some forethought. A warning shot would have helped for one. BTW anyone notice how the young man he had with him has been referred to as "a child"? Helps the case presented to the DA when the aggressors are referred to as teen-age assailants assaulting a child.

As a parent I would be plenty mad at this YM for such poor planning and putting my "child" in harms way.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Of course that guy could have been KO'd by the time the cops got there.

And maybe not, he wasn't smart enough to try.  "He was worried when they pulled up the second time."  He saw them coming, and he didn't even think about it?

I'm sure he was scared, I'm sure he had no plan other than to shoot, and in his situation as a representative of a Church with a child under his care, it shows very basic stupidity.

[mr.jaynes]

Well, we know where the other side stands on firearms-owning 3 guns myself (one specifically designated for home defense, the other two for target and skeet shooting), I obviously do not agree with these poor misguided souls, but here's hoping they're never violently victimized.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by mr.jaynes

Well, we know where the other side stands on firearms-owning 3 guns myself (one specifically designated for home defense, the other two for target and skeet shooting), I obviously do not agree with these poor misguided souls, but here's hoping they're never violently victimized.

Both of us have acknowledged that we are not anti-gun. Do I have to own one to be in the club? Also both of us agree that the man was probably legal in his actions. Stupid, but legal. What misguided souls are you referring to? I have been violently victimized since I was in second grade when I got roughed up by Gary Disney's "gang". I still don't see a gun as the answer to low level hostility and defending against petty larceny. Do your customers know you're packing?[]

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by mr.jaynes

Well, we know where the other side stands on firearms-owning 3 guns myself (one specifically designated for home defense, the other two for target and skeet shooting), I obviously do not agree with these poor misguided souls, but here's hoping they're never violently victimized.

Both of us have acknowledged that we are not anti-gun. Do I have to own one to be in the club? Also both of us agree that the man was probably legal in his actions. Stupid, but legal. What misguided souls are you referring to? I have been violently victimized since I was in second grade when I got roughed up by Gary Disney's "gang". I still don't see a gun as the answer to low level hostility and defending against petty larceny. Do your customers know you're packing?[]

No offense intended, Waterboy. It just seemed as if you were on the anti-gun side. I stand corrected.

By the way, if this is any consolation, but had we-you and myself- been in second grade together, this Disney guy (never had the privelege of meeting him, don't even know who he is, wouldn't know him even if ya pointed him out to me) would have cleared a path for you. And hey, I don't need a gun to make the point either.

[waterboy]

None taken Mr. Jaynes. Gary Disney was a bully that later came to respect me for NOT fighting him. He wanted me to join his gang or he was going to beat me up! Second grade no less! He pushed me down and called my mom bad names (this was the fifties) but I told him as long as your gang is nearby I won't fight you cause they will join in. He was afraid to fight me without them so it was a draw. I cried all the way home and my older brother with the silver studded black leather jacket offered to beat them all up (he could have!) but I refused the offer. Had to sit with these guys at lunch ya know. Gary was an abused child that later was glad to have me as an ally. I suppose he's in McAlester now. Tough neighborhood but good experience.

[mr.jaynes]

In light of my previous comment, let me state for the record that I'm no thug and never was. It's just that in grade school, I never took well to the school bully type, and didn't hesitate to stand up for myself and those that the resident bullies would have in their sights.

[iplaw]

quote:low level hostility

How would you know at the time that this was the case?  How did he know that they didn't have a knife or a gun?  Was he supposed to wait until they were finished before he decided what action(s) was/were appropriate.

The law allows you use deadly force in situations like this primarily because you NEVER know what degree of force may be used by an attacker.  Once someone has crossed the line of physically assault, one should suspect that they have no intention of using "low level hostility."

You think it was "low level hostility" because it wasn't allowed to go any further than that.  Had he not shot this guy, the story may have turned out very different.  Our society today is one where people getting shot over video game consoles.  You can't simply hope for the best in a situation like this one, and this isn't the playground in elementary school.  Real life in 2007 is a bit more dangerous.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Do you think it would take these punks 30 minutes to whip his donkey? The first break in was at 2:30. He didn't call the police to report it. What, he was being a good guy by not reporting it? Yes, the police know that fireworks stands are easy targets. So do stand operators. That is why they often have a dog nearby, some big guys staying on premises, lighting etc. The police would have staked the place out. When my neighbor was burglarized, the first thing the cop told us was, they'll be back again soon. They were.

I have to agree with MC. There were other ways to deal with this. Some forethought. A warning shot would have helped for one. BTW anyone notice how the young man he had with him has been referred to as "a child"? Helps the case presented to the DA when the aggressors are referred to as teen-age assailants assaulting a child.

As a parent I would be plenty mad at this YM for such poor planning and putting my "child" in harms way.

The newspaper account didn't characterize the first encounter at 2:30 as a break-in.  

For your reading pleasure, here is the account from the Muskogee Phoenix:

quote:
A group of individuals first came to the big tent about 2:30 a.m. Sunday and asked to buy some fireworks, said Muskogee Police Spokesman Brad Holt.

Donnelly asked the group to come back during daylight hours, Holt said.

The group returned about 30 minutes later. Donnelly said he was pretty worried then. Several of the individuals went into the back of the tent stand and attacked the juvenile, Donnelly said Sunday.

The youth was attacked, knocked down and then rolled outside the tent, screaming for help.

Donnelly said that was about the same time three subjects rushed him.

"I shot — I was in fear of my life and Daniel's life — I feel I did what I had to do," Donnelly said Sunday night.

He said he was angry to have been put in that position....

...Holt said Gilbert was the only adult, and that four juveniles are in custody. Police are seeking three more people in connection with the early morning attempt to overpower Donnelly and the 17-year-old, Holt said.

Okay, according to the last paragraph, sounds like it was eight on two.  Other part is, the YM didn't put the kid in harms way, the parents apparently must have known where he was, who he was with.  The punks who rushed the stand put the kid in harm's way.

Eight-on-two, that's reasonible to fear for your life.  Shoot away.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Other part is, the YM didn't put the kid in harms way, the parents apparently must have known where he was, who he was with.  The punks who rushed the stand put the kid in harm's way.

And it would have been the "punks" fault had this numbskull shot the kid instead.  I'm sure his parents would have been thrilled.

That it didn't go down that way, doesn't contribute to the Youth Ministers claim to forethought.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Do you think it would take these punks 30 minutes to whip his donkey? The first break in was at 2:30. He didn't call the police to report it. What, he was being a good guy by not reporting it? Yes, the police know that fireworks stands are easy targets. So do stand operators. That is why they often have a dog nearby, some big guys staying on premises, lighting etc. The police would have staked the place out. When my neighbor was burglarized, the first thing the cop told us was, they'll be back again soon. They were.

I have to agree with MC. There were other ways to deal with this. Some forethought. A warning shot would have helped for one. BTW anyone notice how the young man he had with him has been referred to as "a child"? Helps the case presented to the DA when the aggressors are referred to as teen-age assailants assaulting a child.

As a parent I would be plenty mad at this YM for such poor planning and putting my "child" in harms way.

The newspaper account didn't characterize the first encounter at 2:30 as a break-in.  

For your reading pleasure, here is the account from the Muskogee Phoenix:

quote:
A group of individuals first came to the big tent about 2:30 a.m. Sunday and asked to buy some fireworks, said Muskogee Police Spokesman Brad Holt.

Donnelly asked the group to come back during daylight hours, Holt said.

The group returned about 30 minutes later. Donnelly said he was pretty worried then. Several of the individuals went into the back of the tent stand and attacked the juvenile, Donnelly said Sunday.

The youth was attacked, knocked down and then rolled outside the tent, screaming for help.

Donnelly said that was about the same time three subjects rushed him.

"I shot — I was in fear of my life and Daniel's life — I feel I did what I had to do," Donnelly said Sunday night.

He said he was angry to have been put in that position....

...Holt said Gilbert was the only adult, and that four juveniles are in custody. Police are seeking three more people in connection with the early morning attempt to overpower Donnelly and the 17-year-old, Holt said.

Okay, according to the last paragraph, sounds like it was eight on two.  Other part is, the YM didn't put the kid in harms way, the parents apparently must have known where he was, who he was with.  The punks who rushed the stand put the kid in harm's way.

Eight-on-two, that's reasonible to fear for your life.  Shoot away.

Its confusing to have so many stories floating around. And different adjectives. The first story I thought I read said that in the first encounter that two of the kids had gone behind the counter. It also sounds like this was a ruse and they brought more kids with them for the second encounter.

Remember, this episode is being recounted from the shooters viewpoint and no one is going to pay much attention to the stories of the punks. Nonetheless, as a juror I could entertain two melodramas here with little evidence to prove either one.

I don't wish to seem cavalier about his protecting himself and the young man. Neither do I savor the attitude of "shoot away". Soft heart that I am, they are someone's children, and human beings that can be put on a Godly path without killing them. Its ironic that it is a church pastor involved. I can see why he is angry but he was limited in his response by their actions and his gun. The church is the big loser in all this.

You might ask yourself this. If the action had taken place in the lobby of the church, would the administration have allowed him to carry a gun and shoot them? Probably not. Well their ministry is everywhere, not just the building.

[iplaw]

quote:Soft heart that I am, they are someone's children, and human beings that can be put on a Godly path without killing them.

Thank God you have no say so when it comes to me or others defending our families.  You probably applaud a judge that sends the homeowner to prison when the criminal slips and falls on a wet kitchen floor.  

quote:You might ask yourself this. If the action had taken place in the lobby of the church, would the administration have allowed him to carry a gun and shoot them? Probably not. Well their ministry is everywhere, not just the building.

Surely you must be kidding...

How does this analogy even correspond?  Not only is this not comparing apples to apples, it's like comparing apples to shoe horns.  There is no reason for someone to anticipate a physical altercation in a church, whereas there is a much greater chance of one when you're out in an unprotected, unsecured area with money and no security personnel.

Pastor or not, he's just a human and reacted as any typical human being should have given the facts.

[Conan71]

It is confusing WB.  As I said in the Riverside shooting post, we are but a peanut gallery.  I also mentioned that the Tulsa media has a knack of reporting crime stories that leave enough gaps to drive a semi-truck of speculation through them. []

You keep mentioning the work "kill" or "killing".  At last report, the fellow who was shot is in good condition.  He was wounded.

Churches aren't frequent targets of robbery, so there's no expectation you might need a gun.  They are frequent targets of burglary however, when no one is around.  Criminals generally will avoid crowds, police, and other places they might meet resistance unless it's someone bent on mass-murder.  How many times have you heard of a crowded bar being robbed?  I can't think of one account.  I have, however, heard of bars being robbed at 2:30am to 3:00am plenty of times.  Why?  Because there is the expectation of far less resistance.

Apparently, fireworks were being sold in a tent which would be difficult to secure.  Instead of counting on the fireworks to raise money, the church could have wound up in the hole to the wholesaler if they got ripped off.  Made good sense to have someone there.  It's reasonible to expect that one or two people being present would be a deterrent to theft.  In this case, the thieves figured they could outnumber and overwhelm two people.

Personally, I have a 17 y/o who is very involved in church youth group activities.  There's no way I'd allow her to be part of a security detail in the middle of the night at a fund-raising event.  Perhaps that kid is 6'5" and 275 pounds.  Who knows?  That was his and his parent's decision.  Not what I would have done, but I'm not going to criticize their judgement.

Had the pastor not had a gun, we would have likely read about two badly beaten or possibly dead people instead of a thief recovering from a gun-shot wound.