Yoot Pastor Shoots Petty Criminal

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Not what I would have done, but I'm not going to criticize their judgement.

Fine, I'll take care of it for you.  His parents are morons too.  There, I said it.  My kid wouldn't be allowed to do that either, and after an event like this, wouldn't be allowed to hang out with the Youth Minister.  

I bet the Fireworks stand idea was put into motion by the YM, that's the way these things normally go down.  I think I'd find another way to raise funds, or at the very least sell the fireworks out of a more defensible fixed location.  As opposed to a tent, protected by Gomer Pile and Smith & Wesson.

And I disagree with warning shots.  Can cause more trouble than it's worth.  If you're going to pull it out, make it count.

[RecycleMichael]

The most important part of the story is the fact that they were selling fireworks in a tent.

It has rained so much in the few legal days that fireworks can be sold, I am thinking of getting with waterboy and his boat for a ride to work.

Don't fireworks go bad if they get moist? Wouldn't storing little pieces of paper stuffed with gunpowder in such a wet environment have a negative effect on the fireworks?

Buying and selling fireworks like that is not just a bad idea, it is a dud.

[tim huntzinger]

I still like the idea of a warning shot, sort of like a flashbang disorienting thing.

Now, based on the comments about in past from this peanut gallery about punk criminals getting what is coming to them I find it hard to believe that a certain amount of 'Dang right!' would follow a successful 'stand yer ground' shooting or 'self-defense' shooting.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Churches aren't frequent targets of robbery, so there's no expectation you might need a gun.  They are frequent targets of burglary however, when no one is around.

Well, the stats may not be solid on those statements. They may not be reported, they may be thwarted, they may even be common for all we know. Since we know they are common targets for burglary, and since burglaries often become assaults, should the night janitor or night watchman be armed? Should the usher who carries the collection plate back to the church office alone while others continue the service be armed? As you say, he has money, there is no crowd, little chance of resistance so a criminals wet dream. I doubt my church council would approve that policy but maybe some would. Regardless, the expectation thing is the important part. Why is a church participating in fund raising that has the expectation of robbery anyway?

Apparently, fireworks were being sold in a tent which would be difficult to secure.  Instead of counting on the fireworks to raise money, the church could have wound up in the hole to the wholesaler if they got ripped off.  Made good sense to have someone there.  It's reasonible to expect that one or two people being present would be a deterrent to theft.  In this case, the thieves figured they could outnumber and overwhelm two people.

Agreed. You are describing a poor business model, then blaming human nature that anyone could have foreseen, for what happened. Thieves, punks, criminals exist. Prudent people plan for them and if your only plan is a gun and a couple big guys, then this is what happens. If you're a church this is probably not a good plan. I think we agree on stuff, we just disagree on how it best could have been prevented.

TextPersonally, I have a 17 y/o who is very involved in church youth group activities.  There's no way I'd allow her to be part of a security detail in the middle of the night at a fund-raising event.  Perhaps that kid is 6'5" and 275 pounds.  Who knows?  That was his and his parent's decision.  Not what I would have done, but I'm not going to criticize their judgement.

Agree again, we just have a different conclusion. I believe in accepting the responsiblity for a poor decision. If his parents were aware that the plan was to put two big guys with a gun to guard the merchandise, then they deserve criticism. Jeez, even good parents make poor decisions.

[Conan71]

WB, I think you are letting your imagination run away with this thing to the point of absurdity in re: churches.

I really don't remember ever hearing of a fireworks stand being robbed, or at the foggiest of my recollection, maybe one.  Burglaries on the other hand, I don't think would be uncommon as most stands are either built out of plywood or are in a tent.

Why does it make a difference if it was a church running the stand or the Hell's Angels?  There are hundreds of other stands being run around the state this time of year.  Is that a bad idea for every other operator?  Church or not?

On the part of the church it likely sounded like a very good opportunity to raise funds.  Who would have reasonably thought it would lead to a robbery and shooting?  Just because he had a gun doesn't mean he for certain was anticipating trouble, it was for "just in case".  Parse that all you like, as I'm sure you will.

The only thing significant incident prior to this which stands out in my mind with fireworks stands is hearing about some idiot firing a roman candle into one...as far as that result, use your imagination.

Staying with the merchandise is not unique to this situation, especially when selling out of a temporary location like a tent.

I guess if someone slips, falls, cracks their head, and dies at a church bake sale you guys are going to say what a stupid fund-raising idea that is. [B)]

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I guess if someone slips, falls, cracks their head, and dies at a church bake sale you guys are going to say what a stupid fund-raising idea that is. [B)]

If they slip, fall, and the Youth Minister shoots them, well then yes.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I guess if someone slips, falls, cracks their head, and dies at a church bake sale you guys are going to say what a stupid fund-raising idea that is. [B)]

If they slip, fall, and the Youth Minister shoots them, well then yes.

[}:)]

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I guess if someone slips, falls, cracks their head, and dies at a church bake sale you guys are going to say what a stupid fund-raising idea that is. [B)]

If they slip, fall, and the Youth Minister shoots them, well then yes.

But they might have been armed! Shoot them as soon as they fall then ask questions later.[]

[jamesrage]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

Not a Tulsan, but this brings out the Christians with guns debate quite nicely.

This guy puts the Riverside shooter to shame.  At what point does a youth pastor decide that bringing a gun to an overnighter is a good idea? Any defenders out there?

Everyman has a right to defend himself and others.

[tim huntzinger]

Thanks JR for wading in so timely! You certainly capsulated the discussion!

'A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive the suicidal destruction wrought upon it by paranoid despots and their sychophantic, pantywaist yesmen at the local level.'

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

Thanks JR for wading in so timely! You certainly capsulated the discussion!

sychophantic

Was that a typo or did you create a really cool new word with two meanings? I hope the latter.[]

sycophantic would describe Condoleeza. (p)sychophantic would describe G. Gordon Liddy.

[Lister]

Man is attacked
Man defends self by shooting the scum with his gun.

Sounds good to me.

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

Thanks JR for wading in so timely! You certainly capsulated the discussion!

sychophantic

Was that a typo or did you create a really cool new word with two meanings? I hope the latter.[]

sycophantic would describe Condoleeza. (p)sychophantic would describe G. Gordon Liddy.

Condoleezza-she's loyal to her boss to a fault, and just as dedicated to bringing his objectives to fruition.

Liddy? The man is clearly insane. No other way to describe him.

[RecycleMichael]

Back to my point that it is all about fireworks...this is my conspiracy theory portion of the day.

Fireworks are symbols of war...they represent bombs bursting in air...or so the song says. People who like fireworks are secretly and/or subconsciencely approving of violence. The gun people and the military/industrial complex use fireworks and the scent of gunpowder to lure children into becoming gun owners and voting for pro-war candidates.

Fireworks are also the reason why Bell's was moved. The biggest day of the year for RiverParks is the fourth of July and Bell's was competing with their own show. Now, the powers of the RiverParks Authority have fourth of July fireworks all to themselves.

It is all about fireworks.

[iplaw]

What if he'd shot him with a roman candle?