Happy day after "No Amnesty" day!

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

And there's plenty more border to secure, besides the 700 miles.  And part of it is partial funding.  Pass a bill that secures the Mexican border now, and funds it.  If walls take time, multiply border forces by 10.  Whatever.  Just do it, and stop screwin' around.

I think Bush's "comprehensive plan" is sane.  Maybe the only sane thing he's offered his entire presidency.  What's holding it up is the "deport them all" crowd and the "how we going to fund this without raising taxes" crowd.  And to sit here and say:

quote:Instant citizenship is no cure for the immigration problem.

That's not what Bush's plan is, as I'm sure you're fully aware.

Nothing will get done, until the GOP pulls it's head out and stops the cheerleading and rhetoric of stomping pragmatism for no apparent reason.  Absolutely nothing will get done.  If that's what you're looking for, congratulations.  The only people I know of that should really dig this, are illegals.

Here's the problem as I see it with the Dems and Reps both.  I don't think either side is interested in doing anything substantive at this point.  This could be a tipping issue as to whom is in power after the '08 election.

It is such an overwhelming problem that there likely hasn't been any real logistical research put into this other than what is politically expedient.  It seems focus groups are guiding this legislation rather than common sense.

There is a sense of urgency because there is an overwhelming public outcry to do something about it.  However, rushing through crappy legislation just to placate angry citizens and so some Senators can say they voted for it and so some Democratic Senators running for President (and Rep candidates can say they did or didn't support Bush on it) can say they voted for it is shameful.

With the '08 election beginning pretty much after the '06 mid-term, all anyone in Washington seems to care about is what is going to get their party into the WH in '08, and who is still going to have a job in the HOR and Senate.  All anyone is worried about, IMO is not pissing off the present electorate whilst courting a new potential 12-20mm voting bloc for their own party.

I can't remember who said it, either Dennis Miller or Michael Savage: "All we need to do is start saying 'term limits'.  Term limits are like kryptonite to a Washington politician."

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Lister

Nobody trusts Congress or the President to actually do what they propose, and that is the biggest problem.

The GOP had six years of absolute power to pull it together, and couldn't.  Surely you don't expect a bill to magic it's way into existence now, when you have bigger fish to fry like "Ted Kennedy."

This might have been your last chance.  So pat yourself on the back, you guys accomplished nothing again, and will likely have to live with an insecure border and an increasing illegal population into infinity.  You should be proud.  

One of the few uses I figured I'd have for the GOP, and it turns out that on this issue, they're useless.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Here's the problem as I see it with the Dems and Reps both.  I don't think either side is interested in doing anything substantive at this point.  This could be a tipping issue as to whom is in power after the '08 election."

You're right on one part of that.  It's one of the few wedge issues the GOP can own in 08.  A "secure border" bill being passed, kills that issue.  Struggling with "comprehensive" keeps it alive.

No reason to solve anything, if it's your only ammunition in 2008.  Guarantee you, if a GOP is elected, it will be an issue in 2012 and 2016 as well.

[Lister]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by Lister

Nobody trusts Congress or the President to actually do what they propose, and that is the biggest problem.

The GOP had six years of absolute power to pull it together, and couldn't.  Surely you don't expect a bill to magic it's way into existence now, when you have bigger fish to fry like "Ted Kennedy."

This might have been your last chance.  So pat yourself on the back, you guys accomplished nothing again, and will likely have to live with an insecure border and an increasing illegal population into infinity.  You should be proud.  

One of the few uses I figured I'd have for the GOP, and it turns out that on this issue, they're useless.

I will pat myself on the back. Thanks

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Here's the problem as I see it with the Dems and Reps both.  I don't think either side is interested in doing anything substantive at this point.  This could be a tipping issue as to whom is in power after the '08 election."

You're right on one part of that.  It's one of the few wedge issues the GOP can own in 08.  A "secure border" bill being passed, kills that issue.  Struggling with "comprehensive" keeps it alive.

No reason to solve anything, if it's your only ammunition in 2008.  Guarantee you, if a GOP is elected, it will be an issue in 2012 and 2016 as well.

Bottom line is, the motivation in Washington needs to become solving problems, not garnering votes from the populace, agreed?

This didn't just become a problem in the last six years, it's been kicking around and slowly growing for the last 25 to 30 years.  Hell, Ted Kennedy was the big proponent of Chain migration 40 some years ago.

This like Social Security has been passed along from one majority to the other.  I'm not saying that to defend a GOP that was in the majority since 1994, it's to say I'm pissed at all the legislators who have served in the last 30 years for not dealing with the border problem before it came to loggerheads.  

[MichaelC]

Yes.  They need to figure this out.  It's been far more pressing, IMO, since 911.  So I don't fault everyone, and talking about what people did years ago doesn't make up for the fact that they're doing nothing now.  Bush's bill is reasonable.  Certainly more reasonable than never closing the borders, and never documenting folks that are already here.  Certainly more reasonable than creating some massive machine to round up people and force them out.

It's past due.  If it goes on too long, people will forget that this is about security.  Then you'll lose the attention of way too many Democrats.  It's simple math, and human nature to lose interest.  Time is running out.

[Hometown]

I don't think you guys realize how much traffic there really is moving across the border.  

The Border States also are agricultural states and migrant workers (mostly undocumented workers) are a major labor component in this country.  They harvest the crops.  (Like the Okies used to when we were the illegals.)  If you shut off the supply of migrant labor there will be major economic convulsions within weeks, leading to panic and economic collapse.  What was that trade tariff you Republicans passed that threw us into the Great Depression?

On my cranky days I'm ready to see Tulsa humbled.  But my money is here in the U.S. and I'm not ready to stand in a soup line because you hicks are afraid of foreigners.

I mean I understand irrational fear.  After I had lived in large cities for a couple of decades I became fearful of people that live in small towns.  Road trips were a problem because we only felt comfortable stopping in urban areas.  But there comes a point where you have to say okay, I'm having this irrational fear but I'm not going to give in to it.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by Lister

Nobody trusts Congress or the President to actually do what they propose, and that is the biggest problem. There are tons of laws on the books that they aren't enforcing already. They funded 700 miles of border fence last year and where's that gotten us? I think only 50 miles of this fence has been built.
Why should they believe this new comprehensive amnesty plan to put millions of illegal aliens on the quick path to citizenship be any different? It's good that it was shot down in its present form. Any time that Ted Kennedy and Dubya are on the same team, it's a bad sign.

Last time it happened we got no child left behind. I am glad this equally atrocious, un-funded, bureaucratic nightmare of a sovereignty stealing bill went down in flames. One more thing, massive deportations won't be necessary if we just get rid of the incentives for illegal immigration and get serious about enforcement illegal aliens will self deport as demonstrated by the Tulsa Whirled articles on the effects HB 1804 is having on the businesses that support the illegal alien population before even being enacted without a dime spent on enforcement. As the illegal aliens leave, facilitate and expedite legal immigration to replace them at the rate of attrition with the honest legal immigrants who have been patiently waiting in line. We should build the fence to secure the border, reward legal immigration, and severely punish illegal immigration. This is the comprehensive immigration reform that the overwhelming majority of Americans demand to    solve this problem. I think the landmark HB1804 should become a model for immigration reform  in other states and at the national level, much like our landmark meth bill that has drastically reduced the number of meth labs in the state by providing a common sense, inexpensive, simple, solution to an expensive, complex, problem.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

I don't think you guys realize how much traffic there really is moving across the border.  

The Border States also are agricultural states and migrant workers (mostly undocumented workers) are a major labor component in this country.  They harvest the crops.  (Like the Okies used to when we were the illegals.)  If you shut off the supply of migrant labor there will be major economic convulsions within weeks, leading to panic and economic collapse.  What was that trade tariff you Republicans passed that threw us into the Great Depression?

On my cranky days I'm ready to see Tulsa humbled.  But my money is here in the U.S. and I'm not ready to stand in a soup line because you hicks are afraid of foreigners.

I mean I understand irrational fear.  After I had lived in large cities for a couple of decades I became fearful of people that live in small towns.  Road trips were a problem because we only felt comfortable stopping in urban areas.  But there comes a point where you have to say okay, I'm having this irrational fear but I'm not going to give in to it.

Stop making empty threats about leaving and move if you hate it here so much. If you think you are going to get a majority of Oklahomans to cosign your open borders, amnesty, "jobs Americans won't do" bullsh*#t, you aren't just irrational, you're delusional. BTW, speaking in stereotypes while crying racism? Real classy.

[jamesrage]

quote:Originally posted by Lister

Poor Teddy, Poor King George.. Couldn't ramrod their perception of reality down our throats. It's just sad.. [^]

Hopefully people in those others states will toss the politicians out of office that tried to pass the McCain/Kennedy/Bush amnesty bill(S. 1639 and S. 1348 ) so that this BS doesn't happen again.

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by jamesrage

Hopefully people in those others states will toss the politicians out of office that tried to pass the McCain/Kennedy/Bush amnesty bill(S. 1639 and S. 1348 ) so that this BS doesn't happen again.

What is going to happen is that when pusch comes to shove, their constituents will fall into line like lemmings.  Will Tulsans vote against Inhofe or Sullivan for their support of CAFTA, or the wasteful Highway Bill? They sloughed off conservative critics like we were lepers, refused to debate the issues, hid like cowards.

[Hometown]

Xenophobes join long list of history's boogy men

[iplaw]

What an appropriate analogy, as both are figments of your imagination...

[Conan71]

Back from Pamplona?  Did you get to ride on a bull? []

[iplaw]

Good times had by all.  I will post some pictures of the trip if anyone is interested.  Running with the bulls was quite a rush, but the drunk tourists running alsong side were more of a danger than the bulls...

The funniest part was the running of the autobus, which was a group of dissapointed locals and tourists who ran in front of the first bus of the day after "Pobre de mi," to protest the fact that the bulls weren't running.

More partying and drinking than I care to recall.  The favorite local drink the "kalimotxo" was something that tasted close to ferminted bull's urine (or what I would imagine it to be), which brings back another fond memory of 7 days of urine soaked walls and 6" of garbage that flooded the streets.

The bullfights were bloody, gratuitous, and a bit like a NASCAR race...the only fun part is waiting for a bullfighter to take one in the arse.  A bit surreal as people were eating sandwiches and drinking champagne as someone was offing a bull three rows down, all the while the pena's play an odd mix of music from the standard spanish fare to bon jovi...go figure.

The only violence more gratuitous (or more ignorant) was the aussie fountain jumpers in plaza navarraria...FYI...it's never smart to fountain jump when everyone else has been up for 5 days straight, is completely wasted, and you're depending on THEM to catch you when you jump...