PRESERVEMIDTOWN.com

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Rose

Waterboy,
Where in Tulsa is that 3 story you mentioned?  

Those "preserve midtown", "stop the chop", and "stop the box" signs are going to REALLY impress our visitors here for the PGA.

Not podunk?  Hmm.  We seem to be held back by unsophisticated parochial people who refuse change.  

You ask if I'd like to live across the street from the 3 story. Well, I do live across the street from a home I don't aesthetically appreciate.  It's ugly (in my opinion). However, my money didn't pay for it.  They may not be fond of my landscaping choices or how rowdy my kids are.  So what.  It hasn't hurt the resale value in our neighborhood.  

Just so you know, I live in a home that was built in the 30's.  I loved it at first sight.  But I have to admit, we've spent a small fortune making it liveable.  It works for me but would not be for everyone. I love homes full of historic character.  But, I think it is presumptious to tell others what they should choose.  

Let's get over ourselves and let people be.

The city sets guidelines for new construction and remodeling -- called ...building permits. As far as I'm concerned, if a person plays by the rules they should be left alone.

Mid-town is a wonderful place to live, except for the problem of neighbors trying to tell you what you can do with your little square of real estate.  

McMansion, McDive, McAnything!  It's clear we all love midtown. Why take away choice?  What are you really afraid of?  

The pic is in the link for preservemidtown.com. Even if it doesn't exist or has been p-shopped it makes a point. I am not a member of this org btw.

Listen, you're barking at shadows. These covenants, zoning rules, boards and commissions have been around a long time and for good reason. They protect homeowners like yourself from having their investments decimated by unscrupulous builders who have their own agenda (fast profits). Sometimes the system fails them and sometimes the builders seize on loopholes to do their dirty work. But it is important to not throw away the system.

It is not aesthetics or style preference. Its economics. I would suggest that you compare the cost of building a new home in one of the suburban areas versus remodeling a midtown home to similar livability. You will find that it is comparable. Maybe even cheaper to remodel. So there is no real reason to raze these homes and build from scratch. If you add in the higher cost of the land in midtown to build from scratch it doesn't even make sense unless....you build two or three smaller homes on the lot or increase the size of the homes to justify a larger profit. This is what is happening.

BTW, I guess I'm in the category of unsophisticated parochial people because I don't play golf and couldn't care less what PGA elites think.

[pfox]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

These signs are popping up all over midtown.  Excellent!

The dilemna for legacy homeowners is whether to bother fixing up their properties before putting them on the market (particularly in high-interest neighborhoods).  If the real value is the property and not the house, when the house is going to be demolished anyway, why landscape, fix it up at all? Legacy homes just deteriorate.

Repeat after me: 'Tuscan architecture is eeeeeeevil, Tuscan architecture is eeeeevilllll . . .'

Preserve Midtown

Yes, they need to tear down that nasty Philbrook immediately. Completely out of scale with the homes next to it and that gawd awful "faux Iitalian" knock off look is wearing thin.

Funny thing happened today.  Finished driving a friend around downtown and telling him about this and that building, was headed south on Utica, stopped at the 21st and Utica intersection.  He points at that "faux italian monstrosity" so many people on here seem to hate and goes "Oooh what building is that? Its very nice." I think he must have thought it was an actual old building or something.  I laughed remembering how so many on here have spewed scorn at it. Just think, soon there will be a whole generation of young people who wont remember the gas station that used to be there and will think of that building as being part of the familiar natural charm and beauty of the area. lol

First, it's probably no secret to anyone here that my father is Pat Fox.  So, obviously, I have my own biases toward his projects.  I am not posting here in order to get anyone of you to "like" the buildings and homes he, or any other architect designs.

Architects like Pat Fox, the late Stephen Turner, Jack Arnold, Alan Madewell, James Boswell, and Brian Freese have collectively designed hundreds of homes in Tulsa, and specifically in Midtown Tulsa, some of which are not offensive to the eye, many of which have become part of the fabric of Midtown which is so cherished.  I will also say that each of these architects is allowed to practice their craft primarily because they are commissioned to do so on a regular basis, meaning someone is paying them for thier talents.  So those somebodies must like their work.

Like it or not, these architects represent the here and now of Tulsa architecture.  In 50 years, I can assure you that people will be just as passionate about many of the structures being built today by these talented people as they are about the homes built by Forsythe and Dilbeck.

I appreciate your comments on that building, Artist.  It is my opinion that it has visually enhanced that intersection in a postive manner.  In fact, my dad received an AIA Honor Award for the design of that building. In response to the "faux italian" comments, the materials used are as authentic as possible and the proportions are appropriate for the style.  Real stucco.  Real clay tile roofs.  It is a modern take on a traditional form of architecture and construction for sure, but "faux"? I don't agree.  Furthermore, it employs many of the modern "new" urbanist values placed on architecture and planning: up to the street setback, hidden (underground and behind the buildng) parking.  It could be a strip center or a QuikTrip.  Would that be more appropriate?

I will also disclose that I was, at one point, on staff at the Tulsa Preservation Commission.  It was one of the most rewarding and interesting jobs I've ever had.  I consider myself a preservationist.  It is my experience that there are a few very educated citizens that understand the philosophical underpinnings of the Preservation movement, not just in Tulsa, but nationwide.  It is also my experience that there is a lot of misinformation out there regarding the Preservation movement.

That being said, what is not happening in this whole thing is an actual discussion regarding the future of the neighborhoods in question.  Websites, signs, petitions, accusations, assertions, and downright slander (most developers are evil? Come on. Enough with the hyperbole.) is all I have seen come of this.  It is my opinion that this aggressive, internet bravado ridden technique does not advance civil, intelligent discussion about this important issue.  It only serves to place people on one side or the other.  It is divisive and it hurts our community.

So, what I am saying is that, while you may not be able to convince everyone that your idea is right and that they should agree with you or else, you (the collective you) may actually learn something from your neighbors and come to some sort of compromise, if not consensus about this, or any other issue.  That technique is a whole lot harder than slapping up a website and sticking signs in a yard, but the result is far better.

So, while I agree that appropriate infill in our legacy neighborhoods is an important issue, I will suggest that there is probably more than one opinion about what that means, and certainly a better way of having that discussion.

[Rose]

WB,
Golf?  That's what I thought.

I still believe in choices.  There are people who want to live in new homes, in midtown.  The demand is there and you can't change that.
Rose

[Double A]

Yeah PFox, we know. How are (name removed) and (name removed) doing?

[Moderator]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

Originally posted by TheArtistGood one, T.A. I guess somebody got their feelings hurt and the drones are obeying their queen. It's a petty move, but I think it's quite funny, really. I enjoy it immensely because it gives me the confirmation and the satifactionof knowing that I've smoked 'em out of the hive. They are confused, disoriented, and lashing out in the wrong directions while I remove the queen. They should thank me, the queen has infected the hive with colony collapse disorder, removing her might save the hive before it spreads from the diseased, decaying, queen's court. Of course, those worker bees and drones closest to the queen(ya know, the ones in her court) have been infected and must be removed as well to protect the health and safety of the hive. It's a shame they are doomed to suffer the same unpleasant fate as their queen, at least they can take solace in the fact they will share their fate together. My prognosis is the condition is terminal and they won't survive to see the next election. If there is anything I can do to help ease the pain of there passing, don't bother asking. They deserve a slow painful exit.

Actually, your signature .jpg was in violation of forum rules and clogs the board with unecessary litter.  The removal was in response to many complaints about litter on the forum.

The "Queen" you speak of has nothing to do with this forum.

[pfox]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

Yeah PFox, we know. How are... doing?

That seems like an appropriate private message question.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by Rose

Waterboy,
Where in Tulsa is that 3 story you mentioned?  

Those "preserve midtown", "stop the chop", and "stop the box" signs are going to REALLY impress our visitors here for the PGA.

Not podunk?  Hmm.  We seem to be held back by unsophisticated parochial people who refuse change.  

You ask if I'd like to live across the street from the 3 story. Well, I do live across the street from a home I don't aesthetically appreciate.  It's ugly (in my opinion). However, my money didn't pay for it.  They may not be fond of my landscaping choices or how rowdy my kids are.  So what.  It hasn't hurt the resale value in our neighborhood.  

Just so you know, I live in a home that was built in the 30's.  I loved it at first sight.  But I have to admit, we've spent a small fortune making it liveable.  It works for me but would not be for everyone. I love homes full of historic character.  But, I think it is presumptious to tell others what they should choose.  

Let's get over ourselves and let people be.

The city sets guidelines for new construction and remodeling -- called ...building permits. As far as I'm concerned, if a person plays by the rules they should be left alone.

Mid-town is a wonderful place to live, except for the problem of neighbors trying to tell you what you can do with your little square of real estate.  

McMansion, McDive, McAnything!  It's clear we all love midtown. Why take away choice?  What are you really afraid of?  

Don't move into a historic neighborhood if you don't want to live in one. Most people  move to historic areas to preserve them, not to destroy them. Considering that, are you advocating that we should we feel sorry for the folks who do this, and then have the audacity to complain about the outrage that it inspires in their neighbors? Should we really reward stupidity like that? What did they expect? Where do these elitists get off thinking they should be able to move into a community, and disrupt the peace, character and quality of life by exempting themselves from the same standards everyone else abides by just because they have the disposable income to get-r-done? If your opinion of your neighbors is that they are a bunch uneducated, unenlightened, knuckle dragging troglodytes, why do you stay or want to move into their neighborhoods? Standards for development that provide planning and zoning that offers the uniformity while allowing the flexibility to provide infill development that is in character, scale, and harmony with existing neighborhoods is not dictatorial or tyrannical as you imply. The if you can buy it, you can try it approach that exempts the elites from the ovens you seem to be advocating is.

[ost]

Waterboy,

It is not about style preference?  If I want to build a modern house in midtown how is that for financial gain?  By the way I am the son of a Doctor so I am qualified to perform surgery on you at any time.  So you feel that framing and concrete are the only things that qualify a house as cheap?  How about windows, heating and cooling, lighting,doors, appliances, exterior materials, cabinets etc.  There are a large number of old homes with serious deficiencies in this area.  It all boils down to the fact that you don't like new homes.  Move to a communist country and you will fit in nicely.

[Double A]

Hey pfox, do you consider dryvit real stucco?

[Rose]

quote:Originally posted by ost

Waterboy,

It is not about style preference?  If I want to build a modern house in midtown how is that for financial gain?  By the way I am the son of a Doctor so I am qualified to perform surgery on you at any time.  So you feel that framing and concrete are the only things that qualify a house as cheap?  How about windows, heating and cooling, lighting,doors, appliances, exterior materials, cabinets etc.  There are a large number of old homes with serious deficiencies in this area.  It all boils down to the fact that you don't like new homes.  Move to a communist country and you will fit in nicely.

[Rose]

Thank you OST!  I agree 100%.

Thankfully, there are no bans on modern.  I like it and would not be offended in the least bit to live across the street from something so chic.  Check out NYC -- modern/legacy -- same thing.

[Rose]

Double A-
I'll live where I want to live and do whatever I please to my house.  That is my right as a property owner.  Next time I may paint it orange, just for you.
[)]

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by Rose

Double A-
I'll live where I want to live and do whatever I please to my house.  That is my right as a property owner.  Next time I may paint it orange, just for you.
[)]

There is nothing stopping you from painting your house whatever color you want in a HP zoned neighborhood. I know it's hard thing for some of you to do, but let's have an honest debate. No one is advocating telling anyone what color they can paint their house.

[ost]

Double A,

Most, if not all the dryvit put on new homes now is over real stucco.  Much like paint on wood.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by Moderator
Actually, your signature .jpg was in violation of forum rules and clogs the board with unecessary litter.  The removal was in response to many complaints about litter on the forum.

The "Queen" you speak of has nothing to do with this forum.

                                            I was asked to change my signature line before and did so respectfully without making it an issue. I changed it to what I thought was in compliance. I didn't have any complaints about my new signature line, so I thought everything was fine. It wasn't made a problem until I started criticizing the One Tech deal and questioning the ulterior motives of those pushing it. It's a petty, desperate, juvenile move, but I think it's funny. Besides, I like my new signature line. It serves my purposes and points quite well. You are your own worst enemies. I should know, I can tell the smell of my own scent when I come in contact with it. Now circle the wagons and begin firing to allow the ambush and ensuing slaughter from outside the circle to begin by the Outsiders. The greasers will stomp the socs' again. Just like we did when you tried to shove your regionalist Recalls and your suburban sprawl economic segregationist at large Councilors down our throats. This is class war and I just gotta love how this keeps playing out right into the palm of the peoples hands.  You might have won the battle of the One Tech move, but I believe history will reflect that it was a short term pyrrhic victory. You will lose this war. You have compromised your operatives, so we now have confirmed targets. It must really suck to be continually bested by a degenerate greaser form monkey with only a P12 diploma, a library card, and barely enough disposable income to afford a computer with an internet connection. How do you like them apples? I just love it when a plan comes together. Let's get it on!