Tulsa's exciting rail possibilities

[OurTulsa]

The new bridge is needed and I'm glad that we have the forethought to build it to specs that will enable HSR someday.  The pedestrian element makes me wonder though.  That element will be entirely in shaddows the south view will be of the inbound deck.  Are there plans to do away with the pedestrian elements on the existing SW Blvd. bridge or never-ever open the old Rt. 66 bridge to peds?  Why incorporate this redundancy when there are much more pleasant existing crossings already in place there?  I find it odd that I'd argue against pedestrian/bike accommodations but I don't see that ped component getting much use. 

I any case, it's water under the bridge...already done.

I wish we could embellish the bridge as well.  Put a big gateway feature on the west bank side sayin' 'Ya'll Come Back Now.'

[carltonplace]

Good point...where are they walking to? Most of the ped traffic is runners/bikers already using the 11th St bridge to get to the west trails.

I don't think I would want to use that dark tunnel to cross the river on foot or bike with noisy trains next to me and loud traffic above.

I say kill that part of the bridge and use the money for some bling.

[ZYX]

Good point...where are they walking to? Most of the ped traffic is runners/bikers already using the 11th St bridge to get to the west trails.

I don't think I would want to use that dark tunnel to cross the river on foot or bike with noisy trains next to me and loud traffic above.

I say kill that part of the bridge and use the money for some bling.

I would support that measure.

[SXSW]

I would support that measure.

Too late now.  Wish there could have been more public input sought.  The ped/bike component makes no sense.  They need to rehab the Avery Bridge for that purpose.

I'm still wondering how involved the Kaiser Foundation is with this bridge.  It was stated in a TW article over a year ago that the GKFF had hired an architect for the 244 bridge.  I'm waiting for the "real" renderings from the architect to be released..

[Conan71]

Too late now.  Wish there could have been more public input sought.  The ped/bike component makes no sense.  They need to rehab the Avery Bridge for that purpose.

I'm still wondering how involved the Kaiser Foundation is with this bridge.  It was stated in a TW article over a year ago that the GKFF had hired an architect for the 244 bridge.  I'm waiting for the "real" renderings from the architect to be released..

It's never too late until they start pouring concrete.  Well okay, possibly some point in the engineering phase.

There's really no need for the Avery bridge.  The SW Blvd bridge is more than adequate and connects the trails. There's a slight hazard crossing over SWB to get to Newblock Park and beyond, but there's simply nothing to connect to on the west side of the river on that alignment other than the refinery and a void where bums sleep and hang out.  There's no logical purpose nor connecting trails on the west bank at that alignment and I don't think there can be as it's nothing but refinery and rail yard property along the river and continuing to the south.

[Conan71]

I hope with this bridge they address the way that the Westbound IDL Ramp merges with the 244/75 South at the SW corner of the IDL.  At the bottom of that ramp, the radius of the curved ramp steepens dramatically and very often I see vehicles fail to stay in the merge lane on the inside.  Often they come out of their lane in front of vehicles traveling southbound on the West IDL leg headed toward 75 South.

Does anyone else see this as a problem that should be fixed? 

Not quite sure yet how the ramp will be addressed, all I know is it will be closed during construction and I believe it will be re-decked during that time.  I did not hear that the radius will change.  I kind of gather the original supports and girders will remain.

Kirby Crow (Vision 2025 on TNF) spoke at a meeting at Tulsa Rowing Club last night.  According to him, Manhattan will start work in late April and Manhattan was bidding a completion time of about 570 days.

Also of note: a Zink Lake Dam rehab will take out the "drowning machine", will have provisions for a white water recreational park (that part looked really cool) starting above the dam and continuing to the south and would have "adjustable" current for varying skill levels and events.  As well, the gate height will be 3 ft higher which will help maintain water in Zink Lake at all times.

It was a great meeting, unfortunately I had to leave during the COT's presentation on potential west bank development.  I wish I would have brought a note pad now, I had no idea how much great information would come out at the meeting.  Hopefully Kirby will see this post and chime in to fill in the blanks.  There's some great stuff on the horizon!

[SXSW]

It was a great meeting, unfortunately I had to leave during the COT's presentation on potential west bank development.

Hopefully that means enlarging Festival Park and higher density residential redevelopment of Westport.  Any kind of retail on the west bank is a bad idea, and so are restaurants outside of maybe one or two max.  Tulsa needs to stop spreading its retail/restaurant development too thin and concentrate on existing areas.  More park/festival space, new boathouse, and residential is better suited for the west bank.  If more restaurants are wanted build them along the east bank north of Blue Rose where at least they can create synergy with the Riverview neighborhood and downtown.

[Conan71]

Hopefully that means enlarging Festival Park and higher density residential redevelopment of Westport.  Any kind of retail on the west bank is a bad idea, and so are restaurants outside of maybe one or two max.  Tulsa needs to stop spreading its retail/restaurant development too thin and concentrate on existing areas.  More park/festival space, new boathouse, and residential is better suited for the west bank.  If more restaurants are wanted build them along the east bank north of Blue Rose where at least they can create synergy with the Riverview neighborhood and downtown.

"New" boathouse is not likely any time soon unless it's written in as part of an overall development and paid for by said developer.  According to the city, and I believe Kirby and Matt Myers echoed this as well that stakeholders like TRC and Oktoberfest must be a part of any discussions on west bank development.  TRC has a lease through 2033 and TRC's attorney made it very clear last night there's no renegging on the lease without a protracted court fight which could delay development for years.  IOW, developers have no choice but to play nice with those who presently enjoy the amenities of the west bank.

The COT rep mentioned Branson Landing several times.  I'm guessing that's still the sort of RFP they are seeking.  Blech!  They also mentioned (I think) the possibility of a land swap of sorts for the concrete plant.  I'm sure some cash would still change hands one way or another.  This is all really preliminary stuff and had I known how detailed the meeting would be, I would have been better prepared and planned on staying longer.

[SXSW]

"New" boathouse is not likely any time soon unless it's written in as part of an overall development and paid for by said developer.  According to the city, and I believe Kirby and Matt Myers echoed this as well that stakeholders like TRC and Oktoberfest must be a part of any discussions on west bank development.  TRC has a lease through 2033 and TRC's attorney made it very clear last night there's no renegging on the lease without a protracted court fight which could delay development for years.  IOW, developers have no choice but to play nice with those who presently enjoy the amenities of the west bank.

The COT rep mentioned Branson Landing several times.  I'm guessing that's still the sort of RFP they are seeking.  Blech!  They also mentioned (I think) the possibility of a land swap of sorts for the concrete plant.  I'm sure some cash would still change hands one way or another.  This is all really preliminary stuff and had I known how detailed the meeting would be, I would have been better prepared and planned on staying longer.

Any kind of retail development on that side of the river is destined to fail, and also harm existing businesses in midtown and downtown.  I'm not too worried because I don't think anything will happen over there for awhile, and by that time the GKFF might have already put together a plan for a riverfront park that would nix any plans for retail.  This city needs to focus on its existing retail/restaurant districts and make them better and quit trying to do so many things at once.  

[Conan71]

Any kind of retail development on that side of the river is destined to fail, and also harm existing businesses in midtown and downtown.  I'm not too worried because I don't think anything will happen over there for awhile, and by that time the GKFF might have already put together a plan for a riverfront park that would nix any plans for retail.  This city needs to focus on its existing retail/restaurant districts and make them better and quit trying to do so many things at once.  

Interesting you say that.  That was one of my primary arguments against the 2007 river tax slush fund.  Sales tax generated there would have largely cannibalized from other parts of Tulsa without it being a really compelling tourist destination to bring in money from outlying communities or out of state.  As well, the momentum seems to be favoring downtown and the Brady at the moment.

I realize developers are now addicted to any and all give aways cities and counties will give them to do developments like this, but honestly I really don't see a huge net sum gain to the tax base so I think it would be more prudent for the city to look at an RFP which doesn't demand millions in giveaways or a long term tif district.

[TheArtist]

  The only kind of retail I could see working is just one row of ground floor with living above.  Not a lot of retail, but mainly 5 or 6 stories of living thats over ground floor offices, a restaurant or two, etc.  I think enough people would gravitate over there to make a few things successful, but I also agree that trying to do a Branson Landing type development at this time is spreading things too thin.  It would detract from what is happening downtown.

Basically I could see it as a quiet, yet urban area to live with an interesting collection of retail on the ground floor.  Perhaps a row of art galleries, antique stores, a bookstore, a coffee shop, a cafe, etc.  A little bit o Paris on the river.  If anything is a hit and takes off,,, great.  Otherwise its a nice quiet stroll and a place to live with a great view.  But to try and make it a destination with lots of businesses and such,,, I just don't see it at this time.  Put the retail spaces in and let it evolve and count yourself as lucky if something really takes off, but don't think thats the raison d'etre.

The other thing that might make something work a little better than the RiverWalk, is to have it directly fronting river, not have it set so far back.  You can't really enjoy the water at the RiverWalk.  Though one thing that area of Tulsa would definitely have that the RiverWalk lacked is a great view.  The Jenks Bridge aint all that and a flat, low lying landscape of trees opposite the river like in Jenks, leaves much to be desired as well.

[SXSW]

  The only kind of retail I could see working is just one row of ground floor with living above.  Not a lot of retail, but mainly 5 or 6 stories of living thats over ground floor offices, a restaurant or two, etc.  I think enough people would gravitate over there to make a few things successful, but I also agree that trying to do a Branson Landing type development at this time is spreading things too thin.  It would detract from what is happening downtown.

Basically I could see it as a quiet, yet urban area to live with an interesting collection of retail on the ground floor.  Perhaps a row of art galleries, antique stores, a bookstore, a coffee shop, a cafe, etc.  A little bit o Paris on the river.  If anything is a hit and takes off,,, great.  Otherwise its a nice quiet stroll and a place to live with a great view.  But to try and make it a destination with lots of businesses and such,,, I just don't see it at this time.  Put the retail spaces in and let it evolve and count yourself as lucky if something really takes off, but don't think thats the raison d'etre.

The other thing that might make something work a little better than the RiverWalk, is to have it directly fronting river, not have it set so far back.  You can't really enjoy the water at the RiverWalk.  Though one thing that area of Tulsa would definitely have that the RiverWalk lacked is a great view.  The Jenks Bridge aint all that and a flat, low lying landscape of trees opposite the river like in Jenks, leaves much to be desired as well.

Very true, but you also have low income housing and factories nearby.  Not that condusive to upscale retail and loft apartments.  Perfect for a larger park though.

[DTowner]

Interesting you say that.  That was one of my primary arguments against the 2007 river tax slush fund.  Sales tax generated there would have largely cannibalized from other parts of Tulsa without it being a really compelling tourist destination to bring in money from outlying communities or out of state.  As well, the momentum seems to be favoring downtown and the Brady at the moment.

I realize developers are now addicted to any and all give aways cities and counties will give them to do developments like this, but honestly I really don't see a huge net sum gain to the tax base so I think it would be more prudent for the city to look at an RFP which doesn't demand millions in giveaways or a long term tif district.

I think this is an excellent articulation of concerns I've had for a while about "river development", but could never fully or clearly form in my mind.  We've got some good things starting to happen down town and Cherry Street and Brookside continue to improve.  Absent a large surge in population growth, we just need to keep on keeping on with what we're doing.  The west bank as a park/festival ground is just fine in the short term and maybe even long term.  Unfortunately, mayors and others don't get relected on the slogan of keep on keeping on.

[Conan71]

I think this is an excellent articulation of concerns I've had for a while about "river development", but could never fully or clearly form in my mind.  We've got some good things starting to happen down town and Cherry Street and Brookside continue to improve.  Absent a large surge in population growth, we just need to keep on keeping on with what we're doing.  The west bank as a park/festival ground is just fine in the short term and maybe even long term.  Unfortunately, mayors and others don't get relected on the slogan of keep on keeping on.

Great minds think alike.  I'm on board for green space and improved festival grounds.  I'd hate to sacrifice a great public recreational area for the sake of a retail district on that stretch.  Our River Parks are a true asset to the city and I think it makes it improves the livability factor greatly here.  If they want retail on a stream, do it along the Elm Creek alignment in east or south downtown.

[SXSW]

Great minds think alike.  I'm on board for green space and improved festival grounds.  I'd hate to sacrifice a great public recreational area for the sake of a retail district on that stretch.  Our River Parks are a true asset to the city and I think it makes it improves the livability factor greatly here.  If they want retail on a stream, do it along the Elm Creek alignment in east or south downtown.

Or Crow Creek in Brookside.  Or Elm Creek (the canal portion) along 6th St in the Pearl.  Focus on our existing areas that need work.  Leave the west bank concrete plant as green space.  Tulsa needs a larger urban festival park and this is the perfect opportunity to create that.  Not many cities have such a park space in the location we do with the same views/access...Austin is one of them and their park attracts all sorts of events..