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shadows
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« on: July 21, 2007, 05:57:43 pm » |
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If one is keeping up with all the changes at the civic center does it seem like the we are converting it from a government functioning area into a sports center?
First it was a another generation’s show place, now like the Roman Empire we are converting it into coliseums.
Where should we plan another civic center to house the future citizens government in?
DT; from shopping to office space to government functions to coliseums.
What is left for next generation?
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Today we stand in ecstasy and view that we build today’
Tomorrow we will enter into the plea to have it torn away.
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Hometown
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2007, 11:55:34 am » |
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I’m a little bewildered myself Shadows. I keep waiting for the part where the government officials consult with the people to see what they want. I read a reference in the Tulsa World to a potential entertainment district on Denver. Well, whose idea was that? You get the feeling a group of insiders and high level city planners already have a plan and they don’t want a bunch of messy citizens getting in the way with their opinions.
I get the feeling we are moving towards a downtown that has a lot of large scale suburban-like development with plenty of convenient parking. Like the downtown Home Depot or the jail on Denver. I think when people talk about saving downtown they are talking about remaking downtown so that it is car friendly. I can picture a historic district consisting of about 6 core city blocks with density and towers surrounded by suburban-like development.
I like the way INCOG invited public input for their River Plan. My question is when are folks going to be able to comment on long range plans for Tulsa as part of the government process?
I like sunshine in government. I think it is more difficult to manage but in the long run you get a better end product. Not to mention, it is the right thing to do.
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shadows
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 08:45:02 pm » |
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HT: While we are celebrating the centennial of the city we do not have the problem with flaunting the historical core of city government.
Most of the DT buildings that made a downtown district are now in the land fills.
We are now in the Circus Maximum arena area waiting for the chariot races to begin.
If it seated 250,000 persons where did they park their horses then?
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Today we stand in ecstasy and view that we build today’
Tomorrow we will enter into the plea to have it torn away.
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USRufnex
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 11:27:49 pm » |
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I suppose we're trying to turn the discussion of an 18k seat indoor arena with a remodeled convention center (as well as the city's upcoming move into new digs to help make that new arena/convention center become successful) into this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circusesquote:
"Bread and circuses" has come to be a derogatory phrase that can criticize either government policies to pacify the citizenry, or the shallow, decadent desires of that same citizenry. In both cases, it refers to low-cost, low-quality, high-availability food and entertainment that have become the sole concern of the People, to the exclusion of matters that the speaker considers more important: e.g. the Arts, public works projects, human rights, or democracy itself. The phrase is commonly used to refer to short-term government palliatives offered in place of a solution for significant, long-term problems.
The problem with this point of view is that our previous civic center had been used for sporting events just as much as the new arena will be used for sports after it's built... When I was a kid in the 70s, we went to see concerts at the Assembly Center, and we also saw TU basketball games, Ice Oiler hockey... the International Finals Rodeo (until the IFR moved to Las Vegas)... even at that time, the Assembly Center was deemed too small a venue for NCAA basketball tournament games but some of those games would come to the larger and more modern Mabee Center every now and then... I also saw soccer star Pele at the Assembly Center..... saw symphony concerts at the Brady and the PAC... This city is at its worst when a few dozen of its urban activists are allowed to insist downtown become "arts-only" or some sort of art deco museum at all costs... It is at its worst when "too many cooks" end up proposing a hodge-podge of half-baked downtown-only projects (the Tulsa Project)... It is at its worst when far too many of its citizenry decide to make the perfect the enemy of the good... but it is at its best when the leadership goes over the heads of narrow-minded urban activists and special interests and gives the people an updated arena among many other county-wide improvements and incentives in Vision 2025, which was approved by 60% of the voters of Tulsa County. And no, there won't be any bible-belt chariot races, charismatic gladiator battles or any atheists, gays, muslims, or illegal aliens fed to the lions after it opens, thank you very much... It is simply a newer, larger, and arguably light-years nicer arena that will replace the old outdated one. And there were many ex-Tulsans who watched the Vision 2025 vote closely. Many, like me, were sick and tired of visiting family and friends in Tulsa and OKC in the 90s and watching as the city on the other side of the turnpike was making itself better through civic projects and improvements while Tulsa stagnated. DT Tulsa was presumably too "comfortably cosmopolitan" to host a glorified bait shop (Bass Pro could have invigorated DT Tulsa; instead it is boosting the economy in Broken Arrow)... and too picky to host the new Oklahoma Aquarium (instead this attraction and all the economic and tourist activity that went with it is in Jenks)... It was exciting for me personally to see that a group who owned DC United's soccer team thought enough of Tulsa to propose building 60 acres of mixed use development in the East Village/East End... including 20 acres for a soccer stadium that would have brought high level professional soccer back to Tulsa, like it had been in the late 70s/early 80s. Got tired of reading all the posts from naysayers and bean counters who insisted economic impact can/must be completely quantified for any and all projects... yet no economic impact study for the original NASL Tulsa Roughnecks could have envisioned the kind of networking and connections that helped spawn a multi-million dollar production company established by Chris Lincoln and Jim Wilburn as Winner Communications in 1982... Tulsa-based Winnercomm has become "America's largest independent sports production, program development, and sales representation company" (from their website). I really don't think they would have been nearly as successful doing work for ESPN had it had not been for their experiences with NASL soccer in Tulsa... years after the NASL's demise, Winnercomm scored a pretty big gig... almost every single production for Major League Soccer since the league's inception in 1994 was done by Winnercomm... MLS's very first weekly highlights show originated at Winnercomm's studios in Tulsa... Yes, this year's PGA tournament will give Tulsa some great exposure, just as it has in the past. But a few weeks after the PGA, the international press and paparazzi will be at cavernous Arrowhead Stadium in Kansas City covering soccer star David Beckham's every move. They will NOT be in Tulsa...Imagine that. |
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rwarn17588
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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2007, 12:43:26 am » |
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Who's David Beckham? [  ] |
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2007, 10:08:39 am » |
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I guess I can't really respond since I do not really know what the complaint is. Is Tulsa building a wonder of the world that will be adored by the masses and greeted with amazement for millennium in which fantastic and awe inspiring spectacles will be staged?
I thought we were just changing the renovation plans of the convention center to accommodate local businesses (Talons and Oilers) and to synergies with the BOk center.
Silly me.
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I crush grooves.
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shadows
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2007, 04:30:30 pm » |
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I guess I am a little slow to recognize that the trend along with Tulsa is to build the “Fields of Dreams” in all the major cities.
I cannot see where the “Barter of Exchanged” to produce items that can be used in world trade that we, as a nation, also the greatest debtor in the balance of trade can long endure. In the chronicles of the past,Wars are fought over the control of trade.
The great coliseums of Rome stand in ruins. Gone are the cheering crowds as the ghost of the past linger among the ruins.
As we convert our core part of the city to sports, concerts and shows what part of this can we export into the world trade?
While we chastise our children for the inability to concentrate on the necessities of life, confining them to a very small area, we hide behind the word “recreation”. We reverse the action whereas we flourish them with “lets play first then we will work later”.
This is not a new idea as it has been tried and failed.
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Today we stand in ecstasy and view that we build today’
Tomorrow we will enter into the plea to have it torn away.
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USRufnex
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2007, 08:46:02 pm » |
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Actually, it has been tried and has succeeded over and over again...
Recreation, sports and the arts have always been a part of society. It sure beats the heck out of war...
If there had been more outlets for recreation, entertainment, sports and the arts, The Dark Ages might not have been quite so dark...
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shadows
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2007, 10:49:29 pm » |
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quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
Actually, it has been tried and has succeeded over and over again...
Recreation, sports and the arts have always been a part of society. It sure beats the heck out of war...
If there had been more outlets for recreation, entertainment, sports and the arts, The Dark Ages might not have been quite so dark...
Even before the empire of Babylon through the empire of Athens with annexing Greece who was conquered by the Romans annexing Italy all had one thing in common. Lets play first and hire someone to defend the homelands. Batter up. |
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Today we stand in ecstasy and view that we build today’
Tomorrow we will enter into the plea to have it torn away.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2007, 08:56:58 am » |
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Actually, the Greeks did not use mercenary armies. The Macedonians under Alexander did, but that's like calling a Canadian, American. The Greek city states saw sport as the perfect expression of humanity. It was a struggle, a display of the human form, and there was a clear winner and loser. Even ignoring those facts, who cares? America does not currently employ a mercenary army - we have a standing professional citizen army.
For that matter, the cheering crowds are not gone from the Coliseum. It has been converted into a stage for theater and is a Global icon of cultural achievement. Again, are you trying to say that Tulsa is building a wonder of the world?
What you are trying to say is:
Tulsa should concentrate on other things, this does not help in the long run.
Your message is usually lost in your ramble.
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I crush grooves.
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USRufnex
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« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2007, 08:31:28 pm » |
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quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
What you are trying to say is:
Tulsa should concentrate on other things, this does not help in the long run.
You're no fun. I wanna hear more about how Tulsa, the state of Oklahoma, the United States and The World in general are going to he** in a handbasket. I like hearing how someone can compare a new 18,000 seat indoor arena in a city of 400,000 to the Roman Coliseum that had a capacity of 450,000 to 550,000 and serviced a city of 1 mil........ Or how that whore of Babylon, etc etc etc... is fallen...  Hey grampa, can you read me another bedtime story from the book of Revelation...? [  ] |
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TheArtist
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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2007, 09:58:04 pm » |
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quote:
Originally posted by shadows
I guess I am a little slow to recognize that the trend along with Tulsa is to build the “Fields of Dreams” in all the major cities.
I cannot see where the “Barter of Exchanged” to produce items that can be used in world trade that we, as a nation, also the greatest debtor in the balance of trade can long endure. In the chronicles of the past,Wars are fought over the control of trade.
The great coliseums of Rome stand in ruins. Gone are the cheering crowds as the ghost of the past linger among the ruins.
As we convert our core part of the city to sports, concerts and shows what part of this can we export into the world trade?
While we chastise our children for the inability to concentrate on the necessities of life, confining them to a very small area, we hide behind the word “recreation”. We reverse the action whereas we flourish them with “lets play first then we will work later”.
This is not a new idea as it has been tried and failed.
Work hard Play hard. All work and no play... From Wikipedia, The Civic Center is a prominent land area within a community that is constructed to be its focal point or center. It usually contains one or more dominant public buildings, which MAY also include a government building. Recently, the term "civic center" has been used in reference to an entire central business district of a community or a major shopping center in the middle of a community. In this type of civic center, special attention is paid to the way public structures are grouped and landscaped. When one can work anywhere in the world or move your business anywhere in the world. The question becomes, Where do I want to work? Why would I want to work here versus some other place? Whenever I call my parents, I never know where they are going to be. Their work takes them all over the US. I could be typing this right now from any place in the world. I could have spent the last 6 weeks doing computer renderings for my next mural project anywhere in the world. My next mural project could be anywhere in the world. Tulsa is where I "hang my hat". In my perspective, the whole world is my city, Tulsa is my street in my neighborhood. Shadows, sometimes I think your perspective is still stuck in the times of the Roman Empire. |
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"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
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USRufnex
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« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2007, 05:57:06 pm » |
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quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Since this turned into a Soccer thread (as all threads with Rufnex seem to  , figure I'll post this here:
Perhaps a Tulsa team could get him cheap. [ ]
Well, I just like reminding folks of what the East End/East Village was supposed to be in the first place... and that if TU's renovations of Skelly had been done a decade earlier,  ... and that MLS has been the only major league in pro sports that has given Tulsa the time of day... it's likely that Tulsa's chances at MLS died the same day Lamar Hunt did... David Beckham should have had the entire offseason to heal up... problem is, the Spanish league just ended while MLS is in the middle of its season... and there are some really stupid suckers out there who've never watched a pro soccer game in their lives who paid bigtime $$$ for tickets with no guarantees that Beckham would actually be playing. Anybody who knows soccer understands that the typical soccer player runs 5-7 miles per game and that a swollen ankle has to be taken seriously... let the media frenzy begin... if you believe "there is no such thing as bad publicity", then I guess Beckham has already earned his keep for MLS this season...  However, to put emphasis back on the subject of this particular thread... Reading premature negative speculation about "the Beckham effect" before he's played a single game is akin to reading one of Michael Bates' diatribes in Urban Tulsa on how the new arena will be an awful failure before the doors have even opened...---"BOk Arena or Mayan Temple?"
"Of bloodletting, sacrificial offerings and other grotesqueries"
---"Believe in The Cube"
"Or a Magic Beanstalk. Council approves City Hall Move"It's a sad day when Ken Neal's opinion pieces in "the Whirled" make more sense than the constant drumbeat of second-guessing and sour grapes perpetuated by Mr. Bates... |
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