Affirmation: Sprawl DOES cost Tulsa Big $$$

[Chicken Little]

On another thread, USRufnex and I were squabbling over the cost of sprawl in Tulsa.  He seemed to think that I was some kind of New Urbanism zealot, pushing for something fancy and impractical.

But my point was that our suburbs were built inefficiently and, as they wear out, they will become increasingly costly.  And that, in the long run, building more compactly and transit-friendly is more efficient and sustainable.

Anyways, if you think that suburban living in Tulsa is "cheap", then check out this article in the World,

quote: Life on 'D' street: City's sad streets need serious money  

With the pavement cracking and crumbling, and chuckholes deep enough to bend a car's tire rims, Tulsa's streets are getting worse each year.

It's not just a driver's impression, it's a measured fact.

The city's streets average the equivalent of a "D" grade and are well on their way to failing, according to the latest studies.

"Our roads have been neglected for far too long and we absolutely must find a solution," Mayor Kathy Taylor said.

On the Pavement Condition Index -- a grading scale from zero to 100 that was developed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers -- Tulsa's 1,339 lane miles of arterial streets have an average score of 60.

That's a plunge of 16 points from the 76 recorded in a 1992 survey.

"We don't want the middle of our bell curve to be at that level," said Paul Zachary, Public Works Department deputy director of engineering. "It's not acceptable."

But if Tulsa doesn't find millions more dollars to put toward arterial streets, the number is projected to drop to an "F" grade of 54 by 2013. [more]

It seems that we have simply been putting off maintenance on our streets just to keep the cost of living down.  It's all been an illusion that is now falling apart.  In order to raise our street conditions from a "D" to a "C", we'd have to spend over $100 million a year extra...that's roughly two pennies just to get the freakin' streets passable!

Anybody think we'll do what it takes to avoid the "F" grade?

[sgrizzle]

This is why the gas tax made so much sense to me. Those who most wear out the roads pay the cost. If you take mass transit, then it won't effect you that much. If you drive an SUV, the it effects you more.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

This is why the gas tax made so much sense to me. Those who most wear out the roads pay the cost. If you take mass transit, then it won't effect you that much. If you drive an SUV, the it effects you more.

no, this is why we should be pushing for a tax for roads before we go building river parks.

no one uses the river to get to work.  everyone has to use Tulsa's streets to get to work.

[TheArtist]

Should the road or gas tax be a city tax or a county tax?  And how would that be best divided between cities?

[Conan71]

Anyone notice the slick new bridge over Joe Creek on Harvard near 51st?  Wonderful work, then you drive right back onto the same crappy cracked-out asphalt.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Should the road or gas tax be a city tax or a county tax?  And how would that be best divided between cities?

I believe the proposed tax was a state tax with the money then given back to the counties to spend. I think the dividing of money was based on population.

[perspicuity85]

I've posted this on a thread before, here it is again: Location Efficient Mortgage.

"The Location Efficient Mortgage®, (LEM) is a mortgage that helps people become homeowners in location efficient communities. These are convenient neighborhoods in which residents can walk from their homes to stores, schools, recreation, and public transportation. People who live in location efficient communities have less need to drive, which allows them to save money and improves the environment for everyone."

[waterboy]

My latest underemployment has me spending all day driving in the area from 81st to 111th between Yale and 169. This has been a most enlightening process for me since I have never lived outside the inner city. I am uncomfortable anywhere I can't see the skyline. Talk about culture shock.

No shoulders on the roads, replaced with open ditches for the most part. No sidewalks in all but one very exclusive golf course community. The roads are pretty good shape compared with the rest of tulsa but they are hopelessly clogged once the evening traffic rush commences. Then the lunacy of having allowed multiple shopping clusters, housing developments and commercial offices proliferate without widening the roads and turn lanes becomes almost criminal.

No pedestrians because you would have to wear jeans and hip boots to walk the edges of the unmowed swampy roadside. Occasional tweeners on bikes but they risk serious injury. It is a total car dominated atmosphere. Nothing is within walking distance of anything, even sites within 100 yards of each other. Weird.

That being said, most traffic during the day moves pretty well, with a live and let live attitude.

A rare sight indeed that's common in midtown, would be the sight of a patrol car, a homeless person, powered wheel chairs or a beater car. A beater out here is a non-SUV domestic vehicle over 4 years old. People can't imagine why anyone needs to drive them and heaven help you if you break down. Cause they won't.

This is a lifestyle you have to learn to love. No wonder there is such demand to tear out old homes and rebuild in a more convenient setting.

[Conan71]

I had to go pick up my younger daughter just off the Creek T'pike & Yale in the noon-time today.  It took fully two minutes to make a left turn onto Yale just south of the 'Pike.

Where the heck did these people come from?  It wasn't that bad when I lived a mile south of there about five years ago.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

I've posted this on a thread before, here it is again: Location Efficient Mortgage.

"The Location Efficient Mortgage®, (LEM) is a mortgage that helps people become homeowners in location efficient communities. These are convenient neighborhoods in which residents can walk from their homes to stores, schools, recreation, and public transportation. People who live in location efficient communities have less need to drive, which allows them to save money and improves the environment for everyone."

er, uh... there are only 4 cities represented here... and I used to live in one of them... 96 of the top 100 cities in this country wouldn't have one single citizen qualify for this little liberal pet project...

[USRufnex]

you know, CL... my posts in response to yours were largely based on your insistance that local Tulsa developers and politicians from the 60s and 70s NEVER DID ANYTHING GOOD for Tulsa....

And the fact that based on your previous posts I will NEVER vote for you as mayor of Tulsa... because you have no clue about east Tulsa, south Tulsa or any of Tulsa's suburbs... and probably have little idea about the realities of west Tulsa either...

See, if you would have been elected as dictator mayor of Tulsa in the 60s and 70s, would you at the time have refused federal matching funds to provide for infrastructure and affordable housing for the working class in Tulsa?... cuz that kind of housing would just be too sprawling, cheaply built and inefficient?... hey, let's just warehouse the poor, lower-middle and middle classes in densely urban and energy  efficient 3+ story brownstones... warehouse the same people who had many family members who gave their lives in defense of this country in WWII and who suffered greatly during the Oklahoma dust bowl/great depression... you would have warehoused the poor and middle class in the 60s and 70s rather than have thousands upon thousands of Tulsans live  the "American dream"....

Was that American dream of a condo in the city?  No.  It wasn't.

That dream was for a little house with a nice picket fence (ala Leave it to beaver) where Tulsans of modest means could raise their children.  I'm sorry that you seem to have no problem with URBAN SPRAWL in your own midtown area... check out the sprawling homes around Woodward Park sometime... oh, I guess that's okay, they're  rich... guess they can do anything they want...

And it's especially rich when you get in on the Chris Medlock bandwagon of insisting Owasso and other suburbs pay more for their water..... god, that old LaFortune guy was sooooooooo crazy back in the day.... /sarcasm.

Here's what was going on... people in the 70s were moving from Tulsa to Owasso for the schools... but there were huge (dare I say sprawling) areas of land between east Owasso and the Rogers County line that were undeveloped...

You know why?  Because MANY homes at the time were built a matter of feet/yards from the border of Tulsa County and Rogers County.  Very inefficient.  But Rogers County had significantly lower taxes.  It also meant Owasso Public Schools would spend more money because of the sprawl caused by the migration of Tulsans to the Rogers County line yet would still experience the full benifits of the Owasso Public School system.

What did this mean?  It meant busses using MORE gas.  It meant moving Owasso High School in the 70s from the old town center to east of 169.  It meant having OPS busses service OPS students in Rogers County on a daily basis.

And if the old mayor LaFortune hadn't lent a hand...... well, maybe Owasso would still be about the size of Berryhill..... and Keetonville HS in Rogers County would be a 6A school...... yes, a HUGE migration of Tulsans OUTSIDE the borders of Tulsa County... to Rogers County, which incidentally and in despite of the huge growth in Owasso... continues to be the fastest growing county in the state of Oklahoma...

If you think in the 60s/70s that Tulsa wasn't making some attempts at urban density, please try visiting the Tamarac housing edition in east Tulsa...... would you want to raise YOUR kids there, in that version of urban density?

And what is more efficient?  My living AND working in a densely populated area of east Tulsa or you living in midtown Tulsa and travelling to work to

What is more efficient?  A single girl driving her Mini Cooper from midtown to where she works every day without carpooling or my sister in Broken Arrow who takes her three kids to soccer practice, etc. in her oh-so-gauche minivan?

Inquiring minds want to know...

[USRufnex]

Oh, and while we're talking about sprawl... how 'bout this...

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/american_community_survey_acs/001695.html

quote: • Only a handful of large cities have an average commute of 20 minutes or less; these include Toledo, Ohio (18.1 minutes), Lexington, Ky.          (18.0), Oklahoma City, Okla. (17., Omaha, Neb. (17.3), Tulsa, Okla. (16. and Wichita, Kan. (16.5).

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

because you have no clue about east Tulsa, south Tulsa or any of Tulsa's suburbs... and probably have little idea about the realities of west Tulsa either...

that is funny.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex
er, uh... there are only 4 cities represented here... and I used to live in one of them... 96 of the top 100 cities in this country wouldn't have one single citizen qualify for this little liberal pet project...

You can call it a "liberal pet project" if you want, but it's one of the few programs in the country that actually give people an incentive to live in urban areas.  I don't see how it's so liberal when the object of the program is to curb infrastructure costs.  Tulsa obviously would probably not qualify for the LEM, it's just an example of how people in other cities are acknowledging the fact that sprawl does place a burden on civic infrastructure budgets, and ultimately, individual taxpayers.

[USRufnex]

"One of the few programs"?

Sorry, but this is just the latest lipstick on a mortgage pig that made bad lending decisions in the past decade and now pretends to be urban friendly because it's in their economic interests to do so... "Countrywide Home Loans to the white courtesy phone please... Fannie Mae has some more money for you..."

I found this interesting tidbit...

quote:The LEM looks at a borrower's qualifying ratios in two ways. Before the savings available to residents of a location efficient community are counted, the LEM allows a maximum Housing-to-Income ratio of 35% and a Total Debt-to-Income ratio of 45%. After adding the savings available from location efficiency, the LEM allows a maximum Housing-to-Income ratio of 39% and a Total Debt-to-Income ratio of 50%.

And right there, folks, is the punchline... a coalition of non-profit organizations is going to make sure a few selected mortgage companies with connections can take every last bit of "location efficiency" out of your pocket and put it into theirs... it subsidizes irresponsible loans and the mortgage company allows the government to mitigate the risk...  

Actually, this latest fad is one of many tried over the years... when I first moved to Chicago in 1990, I lived in an "enterprise zone"... lots of older buildings that had new econmic incentives to rehab properties that otherwise could have sat dormant... since then, numerous TIF districts have helped revive (sometimes gentrify) poorer areas... in fact, I'd be very supportive of the use of TIF districts in Tulsa to help areas that would otherwise sit dormant... or be used to incentivize urban density in place of the usual downtown surface parking with trees (talk about "lipstick on a pig"...)

http://www.ncbg.org/tifs/tifs.htm

quote:There are 130 TIF districts in Chicago, comprising nearly 30% of the land area of the City.

As for roads and highways, if you want better roads, you kinda hafta pay for them... I will be replacing tires and getting them balanced after being unable to dodge a pretty nasty chuck hole off 31st and 169 a couple of months back.... if every few miles there was a 0.25 toll, would it be worth the price?...

If Tulsans had a choice of spending $275m on river development or spending $275m on their streets and local highways, which one would they choose?...... and more importantly, why aren't they given that choice?  After all, it's not some local bureaucrat's Boeing money burning a hole in their pocket we're talking about here...... or is it?  [:O]