Tulsa Has Never Faced Truth About 1921 Race Riot

[cannon_fodder]

Anyone who is still alive that had a hand in the race riot - corrupt police, politicians, or citizens that partook in the rampage (black or white) should be forced to pay those who suffered damages in the race riot (black or white).

My guess is all the responsible parties are dead (most authority figures would have been in their 40's = 120 today.  Most participants at least in their 20's = 85+ years today) and most victims have suffered the same fate.  

So why take money from people who committed no offense and give it to people who suffered no harm?  Some of my ancestors were not even in this country, none were near Oklahoma.  And who gets the money?  All black people, or only those aggrieved?  Certainly there was some white people who were not involved but whom the black community punished somehow during the mele.

Perhaps we should dig up the corpses of responsible parties and pull out their gold fillings and pilfer their wedding rings and stick them into the graves of the injured parties.  Would that make you feel any better?  Because it would do just as much good as a handout.

Reparations a generation later serve no useful purpose.  Likewise, 85 years should be enough time for a community to rebuild itself.  And finally, a memorial us usually built but those that wish to remember.  If it is important to the black Tulsa community to have a memorial - perhaps they should take a lead in this area and get on the news for that (instead of gang wars, drug arrests, and drive bys).  

I really don't think it matters what color your skin is, but if a community manages to keep you down for close to 100 years and you have the freedom to do so - you should damn well leave.

[BixB]

dbacks fan,

Thank you for posting the links to resources on the riot. As stated, the history of the riot is well documented and well-publicized.  Just because any single individual on this forum hasn't heard much about it doesn't mean there isn't plenty of information available for anyone interested in it.  

The Riot is a significant event in Tulsa's history and, as with any significant event, had a role in creating the city as it is today.  A memorial commemorating any important historical event is appropriate and can be educational and instructive to visitors and future generations.  

As to reparations, in June 2001, the "1921 Tulsa Race Riot Reconciliation Act" passed by the Oklahoma state legislature provided for 300+ college scholarships for descendants of Greenwood residents. SO inessence some reparations have already been made, and providing educational opportunities seem to me to be the most appropriate ones that could have possibly been made.

I also personally think a well-made movie on the subject from a director like Roland Joffe or Bruce Beresford, who have shown they can sensitively and fairly handle period pieces, could be very good.  There is plenty of opportunity to show both the best and worst of human behavior, by both blacks and whites, in the story.  It might not be a blockbuster, but done right it could certainly make for the kind of film usually released in the Fall that gets Oscar attention.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Anyone who is still alive that had a hand in the race riot - corrupt police, politicians, or citizens that partook in the rampage (black or white) should be forced to pay those who suffered damages in the race riot (black or white).

My guess is all the responsible parties are dead (most authority figures would have been in their 40's = 120 today.  Most participants at least in their 20's = 85+ years today) and most victims have suffered the same fate.  

So why take money from people who committed no offense and give it to people who suffered no harm?  Some of my ancestors were not even in this country, none were near Oklahoma.  And who gets the money?  All black people, or only those aggrieved?  Certainly there was some white people who were not involved but whom the black community punished somehow during the mele.

Perhaps we should dig up the corpses of responsible parties and pull out their gold fillings and pilfer their wedding rings and stick them into the graves of the injured parties.  Would that make you feel any better?  Because it would do just as much good as a handout.

Reparations a generation later serve no useful purpose.  Likewise, 85 years should be enough time for a community to rebuild itself.  And finally, a memorial us usually built but those that wish to remember.  If it is important to the black Tulsa community to have a memorial - perhaps they should take a lead in this area and get on the news for that (instead of gang wars, drug arrests, and drive bys).  

I really don't think it matters what color your skin is, but if a community manages to keep you down for close to 100 years and you have the freedom to do so - you should damn well leave.

Your post is disgusting. Truly.

Remember the entire black community was destroyed with the help of city government and the survivors got no assistance, no insurance payments, nothing. Armed whites marched into and burned north Tulsa. This was not a race riot like we saw in the 1960s, it was an assault and a massacre on the black part of the city by some of the white residents.

There was only one building left standing in north Tulsa. Just one building left standing in a community of thousands of people. That's a harm that extended well beyond 1921. It should also be considered that Jim Crow laws and Segregation existed here until the 1950s, that schools were not integrated fully until the 1970s.

This thread makes obvious that we have much further to go in race relations and in acting in a moral way towards our fellow human beings of any race than I had thought. It makes me sad to see so care for your fellow humans. The north side is not all gangs and drive by shootings. Your stereotype is wrong and telling.

"I didn't do it, it wasn't me, I don't wanna have to pay for anything and screw them if they can't help themselves" This is what you are saying.

Think about if your entire region of the city was burned to the ground, many of the friends and relatives dead and injured. The rest of the city is sealed off from you because of your race and you get no help in rebuilding. If this was your grandfather this had happened to, how would you feel?

I am not for payments to anyone except survivors, but survivors would include people born into the community in the years just after the riots, before the north side was rebuilt. It's not about guilt, it's not about race, it's not about solving the problems of the north side, it's about that this is the right thing to do.

[Conan71]

Okay Swake.  Since it weighs heavy on you, do you spend money up in the GBD other than when festivals are in the area?  Do you patronize businesses in north Tulsa, especially mom-n-pops?  Donate to the UNCF?

What really, will additional reparations accomplish?  I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm asking what would the end benefit really be in terms of tangible improvement?

You are aware there is a nice industrial park off Pine and, I believe Lansing which has created jobs?  A new YMCA, nicer housing provided by the THA, newer health clinics, many jobs provided by the city to black Tulsan's, etc. ad nauseum.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Okay Swake.  Since it weighs heavy on you, do you spend money up in the GBD other than when festivals are in the area?  Do you patronize businesses in north Tulsa, especially mom-n-pops?  Donate to the UNCF?

What really, will additional reparations accomplish?  I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm asking what would the end benefit really be in terms of tangible improvement?

You are aware there is a nice industrial park off Pine and, I believe Lansing which has created jobs?  A new YMCA, nicer housing provided by the THA, newer health clinics, many jobs provided by the city to black Tulsan's, etc. ad nauseum.

Look,

It's simply the right thing to do. Isn't that a good enough reason? When did it stop being a good enough reason?

I don't think that some sort of payment to survivors is going to fix the ills of north Tulsa. There is no tangible immediate change that you would see in north Tulsa. That is not the goal.

The goal is that we as a community of all races, take responsibility for the actions of our community. There is a divide still in this city, read this thread and you can see it. What the building of a real memorial and taking actions to do something for the few remaining survivors will do is help to heal that rift.

We need to this because it's the right thing to and do, and because it will let the descendants of those survivors and the people that live in that community today know that their history is respected and remembered in the same way that the history of the rest of the city is. It is our history, for good or bad. To finally overcome it we have to embrace it and take responsibility for it as a community.

[rwarn17588]

^ Well said.

[iplaw]

Swake:

Sooo....I agree with you about the memorial, but are you also advocating repartions?

(btw, i deleted my post and reposted so that rwarn's would be in the right place...how nice of me.)

[swake]

Here is what I would advocate. I'm not in favor a lawsuit or extension of the statute of limitations or some massive payout. The time really is long past for anything like that.

I didn't know about the scholarship program, that's very good. I think that all the actual descendants of survivors born before the 100th anniversary of the riot should have college tuition waived by the state. This is not a large thing and it really could have a large impact on the community and Tulsa overall over time.

I would give a payment to any actual survivors and anyone born into the community (not moved) in the five or so years after the riot. There are not going to be many of these people. I would give them two things, one, a payment of say $10,000 dollars, something not insignificant, but nothing huge either. Second, they should each have their own place in the memorial to tell their story and have it preserved, permanently.

[cannon_fodder]

1)  Unless I am reading a different history than you are, the ENTIRE NORTH SIDE was not burned down.  Large portions of it were destroyed and horrible acts committed.  There was a full scale assault on the "Negro Section" of town.  I do not believe there is a need for hyperbole.

2) The North side is NOT, by any means, all gangs and drive by shootings.  But that is the stereo type, and stereo types usually exist for a reason and have to be combated.  This communities exposure to the North Side, which is predominantly black, is mostly news reports on crime.  There is very little done in the predominantly black areas to combat this image and many youths revel in it and even attempt to exaggerate it so they might appear more "hard core."  This perception is certainly not my invention and is based on casual observation, certainly it does not reflect the truth - but perception is reality.

3) If my entire region of the city was burned to the ground and my friends and loved ones murdered I would feel bad.  If you then taxed some guy from Iowa to give the money to someone who wasn't even involved 80 years later I wouldn't feel any better.

You failed to address the basic premise, it does no good.  Will any black person say "yay, I got $25 from white people.  Kumbaya."  Or any white person drop racial stereotypes or ill will?  Nothing good will come of it.

4) Millions and Millions of people have been screwed throughout history.  My ancestors were low level Prusian Lords.  When the Kaiser unified Germany we lost everything and moved to America.  In America we were forced further and further west until we settle in Illinois. During WWI the county we lived in took our farm (basically because we spoke German) and we moved further west to Iowa.  During WWII my great-grandfather owned the farm and spoke predominantly German.  His sons were drafted and no one conducted business with him because he spoke German.  Again the farm was lost.

I'm holding out my hand for my money now.  It wasnt you and I can not prove it had an ill effect on my life personally, but certainly giving me money is the right thing to do.

What about the millions of black descendants of slaves?  How much shall we pay them?  Or the Mexican's that lost their land when the Texan's rebelled?  Indian land claims?  How many trillions shall we pay in reparations for North America and Military Extermination of the Natives?

Certainly it would be the right thing to do to correct every wrong that has befallen a group of people.  Back to when the Israelites slaughtered the habitants of their "promised land" to take it for themselves and on to paying millions to the wrongfully killed civilians in Iraq.  

5) If you only want to repay to people who's ancestors suffered or were effected, then only CHARGE people who took part or who's ancestors benefited.  It's not exactly just to punish people in no way involved now is it? But it would be difficult to discern.

I gave a bum in the Brady District $5 the other day.  He was from Tulsa, and he was black.  Can I count that as my reparations?  I'm sure he would say his family was harmed in the riot if it got him more money.  Who's to prove he was not.

Logistically, that wont work.  What about the black people that moved away?  Do we track them to hand out money?  

6) You are implying that the only way these poor repressed black people will ever have a chance is to get hand outs from white people.  In 85 years they have not been able to rise up, but with a few dollars from white people they are certainly going to get their act together and the North Side will be a shining beacon!

How insulting.
- - - - - - - -

If there are survivors it is the cities DUTY to make complete amends and do their best to return their destroyed property.    But to continue on through generations and without regard for involvement only depends the racial divide (white person = guilty of race riot.  Black Person = Victim)

I believe a memorial would be suitable as it is an important and tragic event in Tulsa's past.  Lest we remember the past, we are doomed to repeat it.  But the message should be "look what horrible things happen when we divide along racial lines,"  NOT "look how horrible white people are.  The white man has kept us down and owes us something."  Few, if any, people have ever succeeded with a victim mentality.

[Conan71]

Saying "it's the right thing to do" has no basis in logic.

I get the tort concept nature of reparations.  If someone runs a stop light and hits my truck, I deserve to be compensated for the damages to or loss of my truck and the costs of any personal injury and any income lost as a result of someone else's accidental or willful act.

I really don't understand the point of throwing money arbitrarily at problems especially when the damages occurred 86 years years ago.  Who has any clue what the individual monetary damages would be for any individual?  How do you quantify damages for someone who was raised in the area after the riot?

Throwing money at problems often leads to more problems.  Someone else didn't get their share, someone used it for some sort of horrible binge that ruined their life.  Witness what happened when the government tried to make reparations to people in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

Having a specific goal in mind for the betterment of the community would be the right thing, not enrichening a few people in a community.  Re: college scholarships, economic development funding, re-development districts etc. which promotes the well-being of the entire community is the only sort of reparation which makes any sense.  Witness what soveriegn land grants and gaming/tobacco pacts from the government has accomplished for Indian tribes to provide better health care, housing, education, and jobs for their people.  I don't really agree with what they use the land for to raise money, but I'm not a frequent visitor to casinos in the first place.

You know, basic "If you give a man a fish you've fed him for a day.  If you teach a man how to fish, you've fed him for a lifetime." stuff.

And even with the examples listed, I'm still not nuts about the reparation issue.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by swake

Here is what I would advocate. I'm not in favor a lawsuit or extension of the statute of limitations or some massive payout. The time really is long past for anything like that.

I didn't know about the scholarship program, that's very good. I think that all the actual descendants of survivors born before the 100th anniversary of the riot should have college tuition waived by the state. This is not a large thing and it really could have a large impact on the community and Tulsa overall over time.

I would give a payment to any actual survivors and anyone born into the community (not moved) in the five or so years after the riot. There are not going to be many of these people. I would give them two things, one, a payment of say $10,000 dollars, something not insignificant, but nothing huge either. Second, they should each have their own place in the memorial to tell their story and have it preserved, permanently.

So what if your offering is seen as insufficient by Dr. Franklin and others like him?  How do we derrive those numbers?  What if they asked for $50,000 a person, would I be wrong to say that's too much...maybe too little?  If $10,000 is the right thing to do why not $50,000?

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

1)  Unless I am reading a different history than you are, the ENTIRE NORTH SIDE was not burned down.  Large portions of it were destroyed and horrible acts committed.  There was a full scale assault on the "Negro Section" of town.  I do not believe there is a need for hyperbole.

2) The North side is NOT, by any means, all gangs and drive by shootings.  But that is the stereo type, and stereo types usually exist for a reason and have to be combated.  This communities exposure to the North Side, which is predominantly black, is mostly news reports on crime.  There is very little done in the predominantly black areas to combat this image and many youths revel in it and even attempt to exaggerate it so they might appear more "hard core."  This perception is certainly not my invention and is based on casual observation, certainly it does not reflect the truth - but perception is reality.

3) If my entire region of the city was burned to the ground and my friends and loved ones murdered I would feel bad.  If you then taxed some guy from Iowa to give the money to someone who wasn't even involved 80 years later I wouldn't feel any better.

You failed to address the basic premise, it does no good.  Will any black person say "yay, I got $25 from white people.  Kumbaya."  Or any white person drop racial stereotypes or ill will?  Nothing good will come of it.

4) Millions and Millions of people have been screwed throughout history.  My ancestors were low level Prusian Lords.  When the Kaiser unified Germany we lost everything and moved to America.  In America we were forced further and further west until we settle in Illinois. During WWI the county we lived in took our farm (basically because we spoke German) and we moved further west to Iowa.  During WWII my great-grandfather owned the farm and spoke predominantly German.  His sons were drafted and no one conducted business with him because he spoke German.  Again the farm was lost.

I'm holding out my hand for my money now.  It wasnt you and I can not prove it had an ill effect on my life personally, but certainly giving me money is the right thing to do.

What about the millions of black descendants of slaves?  How much shall we pay them?  Or the Mexican's that lost their land when the Texan's rebelled?  Indian land claims?  How many trillions shall we pay in reparations for North America and Military Extermination of the Natives?

Certainly it would be the right thing to do to correct every wrong that has befallen a group of people.  Back to when the Israelites slaughtered the habitants of their "promised land" to take it for themselves and on to paying millions to the wrongfully killed civilians in Iraq.  

5) If you only want to repay to people who's ancestors suffered or were effected, then only CHARGE people who took part or who's ancestors benefited.  It's not exactly just to punish people in no way involved now is it? But it would be difficult to discern.

I gave a bum in the Brady District $5 the other day.  He was from Tulsa, and he was black.  Can I count that as my reparations?  I'm sure he would say his family was harmed in the riot if it got him more money.  Who's to prove he was not.

Logistically, that wont work.  What about the black people that moved away?  Do we track them to hand out money?  

6) You are implying that the only way these poor repressed black people will ever have a chance is to get hand outs from white people.  In 85 years they have not been able to rise up, but with a few dollars from white people they are certainly going to get their act together and the North Side will be a shining beacon!

How insulting.
- - - - - - - -

If there are survivors it is the cities DUTY to make complete amends and do their best to return their destroyed property.    But to continue on through generations and without regard for involvement only depends the racial divide (white person = guilty of race riot.  Black Person = Victim)

I believe a memorial would be suitable as it is an important and tragic event in Tulsa's past.  Lest we remember the past, we are doomed to repeat it.  But the message should be "look what horrible things happen when we divide along racial lines,"  NOT "look how horrible white people are.  The white man has kept us down and owes us something."  Few, if any, people have ever succeeded with a victim mentality.

I'm not talking about some historic fact or payments to anyone's ancestors. We have real living and breathing people that lived through this. They are the only ones I'm talking about.

And it really seems you aren't even reading.

[cannon_fodder]

"I am not for payments to anyone except survivors, but survivors would include people born into the community in the years just after the riots, before the north side was rebuilt."

Those born after the riot would be considered ancestors.  

However, you're last comment was written as I drafted my rant.  Thank you for clarifying your position.  I believe I could be on board with a large part of your idea and apologize for my over reaction.  Little stressed lately [xx(]

[shadows]

Tulsa does not want to know the truth.

One day we bomb hell out of Iraq and the next day we sign sweetheart contracts to repair the damage we have done.

Being born six months before the riot from a beautiful lady who live very near the riot, (The city at the time was so small you could have heard the gunfire or see the glowing of the burning in the Northern sky) She would try to elate the facts to me but as a child I was brought up believing there was a distinct difference in the color of the skin.   We had a black man working for us in '27 who had a red tag hanging on a string around his neck which allowed him to be south of the tracks before sun down.

After the war of 1860 many of the blacks migrated to the Indian Territory and established settlements that were all black.  (Alsuma, Redbird, etc,.)  They established a settlement North of the Railroads referred to as Greenwood which flourished and was know as the Black Wall-Street.  

The Glenpool was discovered.  The men seeking oil drew up leases for the subsurface mineral rights and obtained "Drunk Indian" X marks as signers of the leases.  The Oil Barons chose to use the little settlement south of the tracks to control and build their monuments in high rises buildings.  As one Black Lady once told me, "This was the tale of two cities."

What caused the Riot?

The silent governing body of the city of Tulsa.   The expansion of Greenwood was considered a threat to the expansion of the Oil Barons desire to create a city as they wanted it built.  There was fear that the city would be known as a "Black City".

I was told of the aftermath of the riot when the KKK took over to clean out what the burnout failed to do.

The pictures in the building on Greenwood shows the complete destruction of the business area after the riot.

Volumes of opinions have been written on this tale of two cities and which will never be laid to rest.   The destruction of the Black Wall Street, even today is being carried out as retaliation.

The reparation has been reduced to an individual basis in the discussions on this thread.   The inherence of many of the blacks lie in the ashes that were cleaned up after the riot.  We as a nation are spending billions of dollars of a quasi reparation of the damages we do in Iraq, as a nation not as individuals.   The city caused the riot and the inherence that should have been the families who suffered the loss should be paid to the heirs by the city.

Monuments are for only the now generations.

As this subject has for 85 years been a no, no and two generations have past, it is time to address it an put it to rest.

And today the moderator may remove this post.    

[TheArtist]

There seems to be, from what I understand, a slight misinterpretation of history going on here.  Yes the race riots happened, it was terrible thing, many businesses were destroyed and lives lost.... That area was once called "The Black Wall Street" and when you look at the area today you see vacant lots, parking lots, ponds "OSU Tulsa campus" where buildings once were.

But putting these facts alone together may lead to some wrong conclusions. Like, It was the riots that left the area looking like it does now. That after the riots the black community never got back on its feet and left it with many of the problems and lack of businesses it sees now.

From what I have heard. After the race riots that area saw a rebirth that was said to have made the area much greater than it ever was before. It wasnt the race riots that left that area like you see it now. It had more to do with urban renewal projects, the change in shopping habits, flight from the core of the city to shop and live elsewhere by blacks moving further north just as whites did moving south, then the removal of "urban blight", and insertion of 244 and hwy 75.

It was actually after the race riots when the Greenwood District had its "golden age" that it was called Tulsas "Black Wall Street".

If I am completely wrong about all this. Blame it on this guy...
http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A17408