Tulsa Has Never Faced Truth About 1921 Race Riot

[Sangria]

I don't have any family in Oklahoma, I came here in 1980 - long after the riots were over.

I figure if they can dig up the names of all the people who were wronged - they can do the same and dig up the names of the people who wronged them. Make those people make things right.

They want to talk about skin color issues. What I see happening is "I owe these people something because my skin is white." Because people with "white" skin did something bad long before I was born - before my parents from another state were born.

I am sorry those people long ago did these things. But I didn't do them and I don't owe any of these people anything just because I happen to be white.

Anyone who wants to can make something of themselves and prosper. If these people are letting somkething that happened in 1921 hold them back then they have more problems than money.

[rwarn17588]

It wasn't just "something" that held the affected black people back.

Civil courts were stacked against blacks during the 1920s (remember, this was the Jim Crow era). Even the insurance companies blew off property settlements in wake of the riots. "Civil unrest" is usually the loophole the companies use to keep from paying such claims.

It's pretty damned hard to start over when the courts and insurance company you paid premiums into decide to blow you off.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

There seems to be, from what I understand, a slight misinterpretation of history going on here.  Yes the race riots happened, it was terrible thing, many businesses were destroyed and lives lost.... That area was once called "The Black Wall Street" and when you look at the area today you see vacant lots, parking lots, ponds "OSU Tulsa campus" where buildings once were.

But putting these facts alone together may lead to some wrong conclusions. Like, It was the riots that left the area looking like it does now. That after the riots the black community never got back on its feet and left it with many of the problems and lack of businesses it sees now.

From what I have heard. After the race riots that area saw a rebirth that was said to have made the area much greater than it ever was before. It wasnt the race riots that left that area like you see it now. It had more to do with urban renewal projects, the change in shopping habits, flight from the core of the city to shop and live elsewhere by blacks moving further north just as whites did moving south, then the removal of "urban blight", and insertion of 244 and hwy 75.

It was actually after the race riots when the Greenwood District had its "golden age" that it was called Tulsas "Black Wall Street".

If I am completely wrong about all this. Blame it on this guy...
http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A17408

Hmmm...very interesting.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Sangria

I don't have any family in Oklahoma, I came here in 1980 - long after the riots were over.



I am sorry those people long ago did these things. But I didn't do them and I don't owe any of these people anything just because I happen to be white.

Perhaps you are right. The Trail of Tears was foisted on Indians by people I didn't know, and my ancestors didn't even live here. So why give them any recognition or help. There goes the BIA. Not my fault. We could take that misguided effort to memorialize the event, the Council Oak tree area, and plop in some cool infill. Memorials should be paid for by the losers anyway.

That is the most common argument among people far removed from the event, but for some reason the one that least resonates with me. These people think that the world has changed, that Tulsa has changed and lets just move on. Having lived here most of my life, I don't agree.

If I were to use the argument in other parts of my life, it's weakness magnifies. For instance, I never participated in installing asbestos in homes that were built before I was even born. I bought a house with asbestos though. Why should I have to pay to have it removed?

I never dumped petrochemicals in the river, that was done before my father was born. Why should my tax dollars pay to clean up these messes. Let these workers with lung disease from asbestos fibers pull themselves up with their own will power. Let the polluters of the river clean it up. What were these losers who worked in these industries thinking? Poor choices were made and now they expect us to bail them out? Lets pull up the skeletons of those cars dumped in the river, search for their owners and make them pay to pull them out.

The second weakest is the "bootstraps" argument. Hard to pull yourself up with your own bootstraps when no one will recognize that your boots were stolen.

But these two arguments will win the day. Doesn't mean they are right. The decline of quality of life in areas populated with blacks and other minorities will mislead the public into false generalizations that they are somehow endemic to the race or the culture and will be used to re-inforce the two arguments.

I enjoyed the remarks from Shadows. Each native tulsa family has some stories from the event though most have never been published. This begs for a movie. The reason I mentioned the servants quarters, and the service buzzers in my home is to point out the arrogance of the people at that time. My home was modest even then but servants were an expectation. Even the local grade shool built just before the riots, Lee, was named for a Confederate General. Go figure.

I doubt there has been a remark on this thread that comes from an African American who grew up or currently lives in far North Tulsa. They are remarks that represent mass market, inch deep thinking. Kick me in the rear for my remarks, I'm used to it.  (The one thing not lacking on these threads is passion.) The only encouraging thing to me has been that the most insightful, thoughtful remarks have been from a white, well educated, prosperous former BTW grad who lives in the far south burbs.

[iplaw]

quote:They are remarks that represent mass market, inch deep thinking.

Of course you think so.  Because those ideas are different from yours so they MUST be wrong, or misguided, or uninformed...I love people like you who think that only "others" display shallow thinking.

Did you bother to even read TheArtist's post.  Your comments make no sense in light of what has been posted, and your analogies are woefully innacurate.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:They are remarks that represent mass market, inch deep thinking.

Of course you think so.  Because those ideas are different from yours so they MUST be wrong, or misguided, or uninformed...I love people like you who think that only "others" display shallow thinking.

Thanks for the affection, but I am not lacking in that area.

I would go farther and say that in this time period there is very little in depth thinking. Most folks let others think for them, then regurgitate. You are in a career and possess an education that requires depth. Apparently you don't always use those skills. But wouldn't you agree that a population that doesn't read newspapers, devours unsubstantiated internet info and converses in bumper sticker phrases is lacking in critical thinking or in truly understanding differing perspectives?

Yes, I read his post and the accompanying link. The fact that local government was the major participant in dismantling Greenwood only re-inforces that institutional racism existed even through the sixties. No surprise if you lived here then.

[iplaw]

quote:Apparently you don't always use those skills.

Again, translation: If you don't agree with ME you're stupid, uninformed, shallow....

quote:
I would go farther and say that in this time period there is very little in depth thinking.

Everyone except for you and anyone who agrees with you I suppose...you guys really see the whole picture...

And no, I don't make the assumption that everyone is undereducated, uninformed and so on.  Most of this conversation simply comes down to common sense questioning.  Simple ideas like not blaming others for the quality of life in your community 80 years after a tragic event...after your community had previously recovered.  Not blaming the past for the fact that you let drugs and gangs run rampant in your streets.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw
Not blaming the past for the fact that you let drugs and gangs run rampant in your streets.

This is the most offensive statement of all. Do you really think that the vast majority of residents of North Tulsa "let" drugs and gangs run in their streets? You are blaming the victims, again. Most residents of the area are terrified of the guns and gangs want to feel as safe in their homes as people that live in the rest of Tulsa. The majority of residents feel like they have been failed by the city of Tulsa that this is the current situation in too many neighborhoods on the north side.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Apparently you don't always use those skills.

Again, translation: If you don't agree with ME you're stupid, uninformed, shallow....

quote:
I would go farther and say that in this time period there is very little in depth thinking.

Everyone except for you and anyone who agrees with you I suppose...you guys really see the whole picture...

And no, I don't make the assumption that everyone is undereducated, uninformed and so on.  Most of this conversation simply comes down to common sense questioning.  Simple ideas like not blaming others for the quality of life in your community 80 years after a tragic event...after your community had previously recovered.  Not blaming the past for the fact that you let drugs and gangs run rampant in your streets.

As usual, you make up your own insipid scenarios, imply that they come from others, then blast them to pieces. I believe you just enjoy the fight and could care less about the issues.

My perception of how deep the electorate goes stems from Newt Gingrich grasping that reality back in the 80's and sharing the tools to exploit it with his political contemporaries. I guess you see have affection for him too.

Now, leave me alone. I must go to work.

[cannon_fodder]

I'm breaking apart your post Waterboy to properly respond, not to kick you in the rear.

quote:Originally posted by waterboy


Perhaps you are right. The Trail of Tears was foisted on Indians by people I didn't know, and my ancestors didn't even live here.
. . .
That is the most common argument among people far removed from the event, but for some reason the one that least resonates with me.
. . .
If I were to use the argument in other parts of my life, it's weakness magnifies. For instance, I never participated in installing asbestos in homes that were built before I was even born.

Removing the asbestos from a home has a definite positive impact on the community and is proven to be required for safe and healthy living.  The person who wishes to utilize the property, he who will benefit, is required to pay the cost. In the river - pollution is known to harm all and cleaning it up is known to help all.

There is no evidence to suggest cash payouts will help race relations nor that they will get the North Side out of its 80 year slump.  Likewise, there is no evidence that it will help those that are being forced to pay it.  

Which, by the way, logistically & legally speaking, would include the black residents on the North Side - so some poor black residents who aren't included in the program would be paying money to enrich those that are... I'm sure that would go over well too.

I simply believe that no "the white man keeps us down" black man nor any "black people are trash" white man will have a change of heart when money is exchanged.  If anything, it will lead to greater tension as the money was not enough, we gave them money and they still cant raise up, or they got money I didnt, or whatever squabbles come forth.  I see little actual good coming form mass reparations (not to be confused with targeted funds to persons actually injured by Tulsa City action/inaction).

quote:
The second weakest is the "bootstraps" argument. Hard to pull yourself up with your own bootstraps when no one will recognize that your boots were stolen.

So you are arguing that they in fact, cannot pull themselves up by their own bootstraps until the white man gives them money to buy new boots?  Honestly, 1 generation has been enough for Europe and Japan to rebuild themselves - surely the North Side could do it in two.  Notwithstanding the comments pointing out that the North Side prospered after the riots and something else was to blame for the decline (reparations for Compton, Harlem and other 'black' areas that fell into decline?)

quote:
The decline of quality of life in areas populated with blacks and other minorities will mislead the public into false generalizations

Generally speaking, areas populated by a majority of minorities are in disrepair and unsafe.  That has been the case when the Irish were minorities, when Eastern Europeans were minorities, and more recently Hispanics.  It does not speak to race in particular, but more to the American experience I suppose.  The mystery is the glorification and continuation of this trend by the latest generation of black youth - arguably the first that has truly had equal or even "more equal" opportunity.

I don't know my history well enough, perhaps its common.  I admit I am not a physiologist nor anthropologist, just what I observe.

quote:
servants quarters. . .Even the local grade school built just before the riots, Lee, was named for a Confederate General.

A large percentage of homes had servants up until WWII.  This was very common as women were not usually welcomed in factories but households desired a second income.  At the time white women complained that the black women were taking their jobs as housekeepers and nannies because they would work for nothing - same argument that was made by everyone against the Irish before them and about the Hispanics today.

I do not know the reasons for the naming of the school at the time, but Lee today is celebrated as one of the greatest generals the US has ever produced as well as the greatest harbinger of peace in the post civil war era.  He is credited more often than anyone else with the fact that the South was quickly reintegrated to the Union and that no significant guerrilla war broke out.  Again, not sure if that was there thought process (probably not), but an interesting footnote.

quote:
I doubt there has been a remark on this thread that comes from an African American who grew up or currently lives in far North Tulsa. They are remarks that represent mass market, inch deep thinking.

I would greatly prefer commentary from someone who has direct experience.  Better yet, someone who lived during the time to tell us what happened and what IS happening.  I have no perspective, I understand that.  Unfortunately, the 'generalization' that the North Side's black population is poor and uninvolved and that black people in general utilize the internet much less appears to be somewhat true.  Generalizations are, after all, generally correct and comments from the mass market reflect the publics general view.  Both are merely reflections of reality and cannot be discerned right, nor wrong.

I guess my basic statement stands:

WHAT GOOD WILL COME FROM THIS?  The details are fuzzy, do we give money to all black people, those that can prove descendants, those that can prove harm from the riots... and who will pay (all of Tulsa County most likely).  Unless the payments are to persons actually harmed in the riot (ie. property destroyed) it is hard to see what good will come from the cash payments.

A memorial, a public apology, or some recognition is long over due as clearly this was a serious event in Tulsa's past.  The question should be how do we truly PUT it in the past and live beyond it.

[iplaw]

quote:
This is the most offensive statement of all. Do you really think that the vast majority of residents of North Tulsa "let" drugs and gangs run in their streets? You are blaming the victims, again.

Victims of what?

quote:
The majority of residents feel like they have been failed by the city of Tulsa that this is the current situation in too many neighborhoods on the north side.

Who has failed them?  What has Tulsa "not" done?  I'm sure it has nothing to do with the culture of the communities in which these thugs operate...which mirror every other ghetto community in the US.  If north tulsa were somehow an abberation you could possibly blame the past for its ills, but that is simply not the case.  North Tulsa is indistinguishable from every other ghetto area in anytown USA.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:
This is the most offensive statement of all. Do you really think that the vast majority of residents of North Tulsa "let" drugs and gangs run in their streets? You are blaming the victims, again.

Victims of what?

quote:
The majority of residents feel like they have been failed by the city of Tulsa that this is the current situation in too many neighborhoods on the north side.

Who has failed them?  What has Tulsa "not" done?  I'm sure it has nothing to do with the culture of the communities in which these thugs operate...which mirror every other ghetto community in the US.  If north tulsa were somehow an abberation you could possibly blame the past for its ills, but that is simply not the case.  North Tulsa is indistinguishable from every other ghetto area in anytown USA.

They are victims of the gangs and the drugs that have created a too often lawless region of the city. If you don't think that north Tulsa is aberrant, then you need to review our crime statistics compared to other similar cities. It's too high, way too high. And, despite those crime statistics the vast majority of Tulsa is very safe. It's that certain areas are very unsafe, too the point of not being normal for any city.



The big driver for our crime rate is the gang problem and while I'm not going to lay the blame for gangs at the feet of the riot, it is the fault of the city for not containing gangs or controlling crime. There are reasons for that fault, TPD for a long time tried to act as if gangs didn't exist, it was a matter of policy to act as if they did not. Poor police administration and lack of funding are two more good reasons. Another reason is the fault line that still exists between north and south, where residents in the north don't always feel like the city is serving them or that the police do. Based on the situation even today, can you really say they don't have cause to feel that way?



You want to make crime the fault of the impoverished residents of North Tulsa, but, the reality is that cities have a responsibility to all citizens to protect them and the city of Tulsa is failing to do that today in some parts of the city.

[iplaw]

quote:The big driver for our crime rate is the gang problem and while I'm not going to lay the blame for gangs at the feet of the riot, it is the fault of the city for not containing gangs or controlling crime. There are reasons for that fault, TPD for a long time tried to act as if gangs didn't exist, it was a matter of policy to act as if they did not. Poor police administration and lack of funding are two more good reasons. Another reason is the fault line that still exists between north and south, where residents in the north don't always feel like the city is serving them or that the police do. Based on the situation even today, can you really say they don't have cause to feel that way?

I get what you're saying here, but it really has nothing to do with attributing any blame to after effects from the riot, which is the link that people have been trying to establish.

And not to compare our ghetto to someone else's but I'd rather walk through north tulsa holding a KKK flag than even have to walk past 3rd ward in Houston or 9th ward in N.O.

quote:
You want to make crime the fault of the impoverished residents of North Tulsa, but, the reality is that cities have a responsibility to all citizens to protect them and the city of Tulsa is failing to do that today in some parts of the city.

I honestly have no idea whos "fault" it is, but IMO it looks like every other ghetto I've ever come across or driven through...

If the police did focus more time on the northside it would only be met with cries of racism and hatred.

[Conan71]

I dare say a disproportionate amount of police and emergency services are spent on a relatively small area of north Tulsa.  It's been about 20 years since "there are no gangs" Chief Diamond.

There are laws which prevent cops from being able to break up gangs in wholesale lots and other laws and over-crowded prisons which fail to keep them from returning to the street.  Perhaps if they could get help from the feds under auspices of RICO it might go away quicker.

Why are gangs such a big problem?  It's disrespect for the law and life.  

I don't know about you but I learned respect for the law and life from my parents.

[swake]

Let me relate a story to you. I was talking to someone I know in TPD and they told me that sitting in UDN you will hear gunshots on a semi-regular basis in the neighborhood surrounding the station but unless someone calls to complain, they won't do anything about it.