Tulsa Has Never Faced Truth About 1921 Race Riot

[Conan71]

Care to address why there are gangs in the first place?  It's not a chicken/egg issue, has nothing to do with racial divide or gunshots w/in hearing distance of UDN.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Care to address why there are gangs in the first place?  It's not a chicken/egg issue, has nothing to do with racial divide or gunshots w/in hearing distance of UDN.

Oh, that's too easy and is the other reason that the city, and region, as a whole does have a responsibility to the situation in these areas. Drugs are the reason for gangs. And a very large part of the money that is paid for those drugs comes from people on the south side, and in the 'burbs. People that had nothing and nothing to lose suddenly had access to a commodity in great demand that would provide them with large amounts of easy money.

[iplaw]

quote:Drugs are the reason for gangs.

Please...drugs are just a quick and easy way to make money to further other goals.  Take away the drugs and larceny/theft increase, nothing changes.

[Conan71]

Still beating around the bush here I see.  

Why is it that there are kids who come out of the same neighborhood as gang-bangers who go off to college and make something of themselves while others wind up in prison, dead, or derelict for life?

I didn't get my influences which kept me away from drugs (well okay, kept me from falling into a druggie lifestyle) from school.  Didn't get that from the neighborhood cop either.  I didn't stay out of that trap just because I'm white or lived in SoTul or because I didn't think it was lucrative.  

I had plenty of white friends who paid a high price for messing with that crap.

Are you getting it yet?  Doesn't have a thing to do with racial disparity and reparations and a memorial or monument won't change it either.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I'm breaking apart your post Waterboy to properly respond, not to kick you in the rear.

quote:Originally posted by waterboy


Perhaps you are right. The Trail of Tears was foisted on Indians by people I didn't know, and my ancestors didn't even live here.
. . .
That is the most common argument among people far removed from the event, but for some reason the one that least resonates with me.
. . .
If I were to use the argument in other parts of my life, it's weakness magnifies. For instance, I never participated in installing asbestos in homes that were built before I was even born.

Removing the asbestos from a home has a definite positive impact on the community and is proven to be required for safe and healthy living.  The person who wishes to utilize the property, he who will benefit, is required to pay the cost. In the river - pollution is known to harm all and cleaning it up is known to help all.

There is no evidence to suggest cash payouts will help race relations nor that they will get the North Side out of its 80 year slump.  Likewise, there is no evidence that it will help those that are being forced to pay it.  

Which, by the way, logistically & legally speaking, would include the black residents on the North Side - so some poor black residents who aren't included in the program would be paying money to enrich those that are... I'm sure that would go over well too.

I simply believe that no "the white man keeps us down" black man nor any "black people are trash" white man will have a change of heart when money is exchanged.  If anything, it will lead to greater tension as the money was not enough, we gave them money and they still cant raise up, or they got money I didnt, or whatever squabbles come forth.  I see little actual good coming form mass reparations (not to be confused with targeted funds to persons actually injured by Tulsa City action/inaction).

quote:
The second weakest is the "bootstraps" argument. Hard to pull yourself up with your own bootstraps when no one will recognize that your boots were stolen.

So you are arguing that they in fact, cannot pull themselves up by their own bootstraps until the white man gives them money to buy new boots?  Honestly, 1 generation has been enough for Europe and Japan to rebuild themselves - surely the North Side could do it in two.  Notwithstanding the comments pointing out that the North Side prospered after the riots and something else was to blame for the decline (reparations for Compton, Harlem and other 'black' areas that fell into decline?)

quote:
The decline of quality of life in areas populated with blacks and other minorities will mislead the public into false generalizations

Generally speaking, areas populated by a majority of minorities are in disrepair and unsafe.  That has been the case when the Irish were minorities, when Eastern Europeans were minorities, and more recently Hispanics.  It does not speak to race in particular, but more to the American experience I suppose.  The mystery is the glorification and continuation of this trend by the latest generation of black youth - arguably the first that has truly had equal or even "more equal" opportunity.

I don't know my history well enough, perhaps its common.  I admit I am not a physiologist nor anthropologist, just what I observe.

quote:
servants quarters. . .Even the local grade school built just before the riots, Lee, was named for a Confederate General.

A large percentage of homes had servants up until WWII.  This was very common as women were not usually welcomed in factories but households desired a second income.  At the time white women complained that the black women were taking their jobs as housekeepers and nannies because they would work for nothing - same argument that was made by everyone against the Irish before them and about the Hispanics today.

I do not know the reasons for the naming of the school at the time, but Lee today is celebrated as one of the greatest generals the US has ever produced as well as the greatest harbinger of peace in the post civil war era.  He is credited more often than anyone else with the fact that the South was quickly reintegrated to the Union and that no significant guerrilla war broke out.  Again, not sure if that was there thought process (probably not), but an interesting footnote.

quote:
I doubt there has been a remark on this thread that comes from an African American who grew up or currently lives in far North Tulsa. They are remarks that represent mass market, inch deep thinking.

I would greatly prefer commentary from someone who has direct experience.  Better yet, someone who lived during the time to tell us what happened and what IS happening.  I have no perspective, I understand that.  Unfortunately, the 'generalization' that the North Side's black population is poor and uninvolved and that black people in general utilize the internet much less appears to be somewhat true.  Generalizations are, after all, generally correct and comments from the mass market reflect the publics general view.  Both are merely reflections of reality and cannot be discerned right, nor wrong.

I guess my basic statement stands:

WHAT GOOD WILL COME FROM THIS?  The details are fuzzy, do we give money to all black people, those that can prove descendants, those that can prove harm from the riots... and who will pay (all of Tulsa County most likely).  Unless the payments are to persons actually harmed in the riot (ie. property destroyed) it is hard to see what good will come from the cash payments.

A memorial, a public apology, or some recognition is long over due as clearly this was a serious event in Tulsa's past.  The question should be how do we truly PUT it in the past and live beyond it.

I should answer this in the morning when I could be more responsive. Let me just say, I don't think general reparations are the answer. I don't think I ever said that, but people do infer. Your arguments, as usual are cogent. Can't say I agree, but they are persuasive.

However, there are direct descendants, children at the time, who should be considered for monetary awards for damages. Made whole so to speak. I'm betting that there are foundations or commercial entities who would consider funding such payouts for the good public relations. Doubt there are more than a couple dozen legitimate recipients.

And a memorial is a given. This was a tragic moment that shouldn't be forgotten. We remember the tragedies of Murrah, Civil War, Trail of Tears, even remote Civil War battles. Its a matter of respect, education and hope to stop recreation of the tragedy.

Ps. Thanks for not changing the text of your post several times after I post ala IP.[]

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Care to address why there are gangs in the first place?  It's not a chicken/egg issue, has nothing to do with racial divide or gunshots w/in hearing distance of UDN.

Oh, that's too easy and is the other reason that the city, and region, as a whole does have a responsibility to the situation in these areas. Drugs are the reason for gangs. And a very large part of the money that is paid for those drugs comes from people on the south side, and in the 'burbs. People that had nothing and nothing to lose suddenly had access to a commodity in great demand that would provide them with large amounts of easy money.

Exactly. I spoke with a bail bondsman (in a social setting thank you) here in town and was complaining of the drug culture in Tulsa and how it fueled the gang culture. He agreed but assured me it is the entire country that is struggling with addicted populations outside of ghetto areas that are keeping the gangs healthy. They don't even have to leave the hood to sell. The wealthy, white kids come find them.

[shadows]

After having read through the elegant words of the posters and trying to analyze where compassion to the fellow man is lacking and gross misunderstanding prevails over common sense.  

Being a descendant of a rebellion against the taking of the plantations that was pragmatic to the solution by the trail of tears, it may leaves one biased.

For years we did contract work for the North City residents.  I have been on their streets up to midnight.   When I was told by a citizen "don't come over here after 4:30 for your safety" I considered that a change was in the makings.

Once when I was going to converse with a customer, a little black boy about 6 years old was standing by the gate.   I saw a new penny lying in the street and picked it up handing it to him.  I said: "here go buy you something".   He took the penny and threw it back into the street and retorted "Mister, what in the hell can you buy with a penny".

This was an insult to the boy the same as what we continue to do with the North City as far as the city helping today.  

The riot was an armed invasion on the North City by the South City.  The rebuilding in the '60s was brought to a close by the Urban Renewal where the improvised housing, built as a aftermath of the supposed riot, was bought and what they were paid for them barely made a down payment on a glut of houses in adjoining areas.  Much of the land is vacant today or being used as city offices and other governmental entitles.

We find millions of dollar today to change the governmental structure of the city.  We have the newbee residents coming into the city and call for more to come but they want to be in the changing parade and do not want to clean the path for the parade.  

Have you ever ask yourself why the Clan covered their faces?

It all happened for economic reasons.   On this the statutes of limitation should never run out and the descendants of those injured by this injustice are entitle to reparation.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I'm breaking apart your post Waterboy to properly respond, not to kick you in the rear.

Originally posted by waterboy

servants quarters. . .Even the local grade school built just before the riots, Lee, was named for a Confederate General.

A large percentage of homes had servants up until WWII.  This was very common as women were not usually welcomed in factories but households desired a second income.  At the time white women complained that the black women were taking their jobs as housekeepers and nannies because they would work for nothing - same argument that was made by everyone against the Irish before them and about the Hispanics today.

I do not know the reasons for the naming of the school at the time, but Lee today is celebrated as one of the greatest generals the US has ever produced as well as the greatest harbinger of peace in the post civil war era.  He is credited more often than anyone else with the fact that the South was quickly reintegrated to the Union and that no significant guerrilla war broke out.  Again, not sure if that was there thought process (probably not), but an interesting footnote.

I would like to respond to some of your post. You have an interest in the history of the city, and I believe that although there is plenty of "approved" history, there is lots of oral history and observable results that contrast with official recounting. The story of Tulsa's name is debatable too, but thats another story.

I think you have to look at a larger context for the naming of Lee stadium and the servants quarters of the housing at the time. Lee was not a school at that time but a stadium for the high school downtown. Tulsa elite very much identified with the Southern lifestyle. In fact we stayed with the Democratic party in this state through LBJ when it became clear that the party was no longer a haven for southern viewpoints. It is reflected in the buildings of the time, and such amenities as servants quarters and butler pantries in even the modest homes.  Not so curiously, these amenities disappeared in modest homes, for the most part, in areas east of Peoria and south of 21st after the riots. Non functional semblances of them remain in later construction, but not things like buttons in the floor of the dining room to summon the servant. I spent a lot of time as a real estate agent in the 70's looking for an old home of my own and noticed these things.

Most of Maple Ridge, though the home of oil barons, was populated with local entrepreneurs and established businessmen who ran the city and were profitting handsomely from the oil industry growth. The riot was not promoted by the rich eastern oil men, but by these hangovers from the gilded age who were used to getting what they wanted using mobster techniques against Native Americans and unions. The swindles and mysterious deaths of land owning Indians is well documented as well as violent refinery strikes. This was their riot to protect their interests. Ironically, the city was bifurcating into Northern growth and Southern growth. By fomenting racial riots, the businessmen not only quelled any commercial competion from a self sustaining population, but managed to effectively end the movement of wealth to the north.

This was the context that Lee Stadium was named. To be fair, the fact that Lincoln elementary was built east of Peoria at 15th lends credence to your argument, but I think it was built after the riots. Besides, it was a different demographic.

[waterboy]

This comment caught my eye.

The second weakest is the "bootstraps" argument. Hard to pull yourself up with your own bootstraps when no one will recognize that your boots were stolen.

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So you are arguing that they in fact, cannot pull themselves up by their own bootstraps until the white man gives them money to buy new boots? Honestly, 1 generation has been enough for Europe and Japan to rebuild themselves - surely the North Side could do it in two. Notwithstanding the comments pointing out that the North Side prospered after the riots and something else was to blame for the decline (reparations for Compton, Harlem and other 'black' areas that fell into decline?)
----------------------------------------------

Remember, I do not support general reparations. Simply pointed out some facts in evidence. One of these is the fallacy that Europe and Japan rebuilt themselves without anyone buying them new boots. The Marshall Plan was indeed help from the victors. Having learned something about the disaster that severe punishments from WWI victors brought about, including WWII, America was ready to help rebuild the losers of WWII. Besides overt help in rebuilding manufacturing, much to the dismay of domestic mfrs, we opened markets for their goods. Our investment in state of the art steel mills and technology would soon give them advantage. I remember a time in the fifties when "made in Japan" stamps had as little credibility as "made in China" does now. That aid hastened their recovery and strengthened our economy too.

The black community here had pretty much rebuilt their small town with no help from area government, only to have the remaining institutionalized racists use urban renewal and modern cities programs to finish them off.  Remember, we were slow to integrate our schools and only came up with magnet school programs to avoid federal legal action.

Central was the only integrated high school starting in 1965 with just a few blacks. I attended in 67-69. Race relations among students was fine with occassional friction. By 1972 the school was closed with the rationale that the building was hopelessly out of date, couldn't be remodeled and had no base of students in the immediate area. PSO managed to take over the building soon after and remodel it into lovely offices. Go figure. Meanwhile students were transferred to a new Central in sparsely populated Northwest Tulsa that forced kids at 18th & Cincinnati to travel across town where their was no base but poor and black, but kept the blacks out of downtown. Didn't matter to the Maple Ridge folks as their kids went to private schools anyway by then.

I don't blame the city today for the level of crime and poverty in North Tulsa or among blacks. Most of that is due to drugs. The drugs are there because of the lack of opportunity, not some character/family deficits. You will not find people more family oriented than blacks in North Tulsa. The lack of understanding from the rest of the community about the history of the city  certainly hasn't made it easy for them to prosper.

[waterboy]

Is this what you really meant to say?

"Unfortunately, the 'generalization' that the North Side's black population is poor and uninvolved and that black people in general utilize the internet much less appears to be somewhat true. Generalizations are, after all, generally correct and comments from the mass market reflect the publics general view. Both are merely reflections of reality and cannot be discerned right, nor wrong."

How old am I for gawd's sake?[] I still believe all generalizations are false, even this one. I agree that perception leads to generalizations, especially when the perception is part of a mass media construction. One can read the paper, watch eye-witless news, peruse crime reports on the internet and conclude that the generalization of a crime ridden North Tulsa is true. That is a false generalization.

Nellie lived North of Admiral and east of Harvard as I once did, a solid, working class hood but quite different than Northwest by Roosevelt which is quite different than Pine and Peoria near Carver which is vastly different than 56th street north and Gilcrease Hills. All north, all different. Most with low levels of crime.

Then, North is confused with black populations that are dispersed through all those hoods. I suspect that many groups classed by age, race and income have varying levels of internet usage for different reasons. Does that mean they are less capable or cultured? If you are dead into tech like a lot of people here or simply a younger generation, you may get the false impression that it is more important to a successful, fulfilling life than it really is.

Okay, I've bored enough with my old school perspective. Just wanted to give you the respect of some response. Shadow, take over.

[shadows]

Another 4 score and 7 years is about to come to pass.   The ashes of the riot still smolder and among the remnants come the thought of retaliation.   Retaliation breed violence and violence breeds violence   (The same finger that pointed at the North City with "remove it" may at any time point at this thread and say likewise.)

In nature "Birds of a feather flock together".  Integration was the catalyst that was used to enforce the total destruction of the North City.  It was used to distribute the flock.

There is no one who can go into the former city and not see that the animosity still persists.   Even when they send councilors to fill council seats the councilors are dominated by the silent government after a very short time whereas they become no more than pawns to a never changing attitude.  The Blacks promise of representation ride on the winds of the South City.

There is a new generation that is becoming of age.  They look at the penny lying in the street and say to themselves "once we were a city with our governing bodies now we are expected to gather the pennies until we have enough to buy back our glory.  The riot hangs today like a black cloud over the youth of the disbanded flock.  And the victor has enjoyed the spoils.

It is time that we make our amends and put the invasion to rest.  Reparation could make a great difference in the outcome to the future of Tulsa.  It is much more important we do so in Tulsa than in Iraq.            

[cannon_fodder]

Thanks for your detailed replies Water.  I think we understand each other point of view and I think I have discerned our basic difference.  We both agree that general reparations would do little good, that this was a horrible event for the people, black community and the city, and that a memorial would be appropriate for a litany of reasons.

We differ on the fact that a memorial is usually at least advocated by the victims of an event.  It might be bolder and appropriate for the city to do so, but it is hard for many people to get behind the plan without a "victim" to sympathize with.  People avoid unpleasant things and are not likely to 'remember them' on their own - even if they should.

We also have some level of disagreement on the effects of the riots.  I agree that it was a devastating set back for the community but I am of the opinion that 80 years was enough to rebuild on their own.  I understand it would have been easier and the right thing to do for the government to help them, but nonetheless, two generations is a long time to go with no progress.

and take heart, I never edit my posts without indicating that I have and in what manner (in the [edit]this is what I edited[/edit] fashion).

Thanks for the discussion.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Thanks for your detailed replies Water.  I think we understand each other point of view and I think I have discerned our basic difference.  We both agree that general reparations would do little good, that this was a horrible event for the people, black community and the city, and that a memorial would be appropriate for a litany of reasons.

We differ on the fact that a memorial is usually at least advocated by the victims of an event.  It might be bolder and appropriate for the city to do so, but it is hard for many people to get behind the plan without a "victim" to sympathize with.  People avoid unpleasant things and are not likely to 'remember them' on their own - even if they should.

We also have some level of disagreement on the effects of the riots.  I agree that it was a devastating set back for the community but I am of the opinion that 80 years was enough to rebuild on their own.  I understand it would have been easier and the right thing to do for the government to help them, but nonetheless, two generations is a long time to go with no progress.

and take heart, I never edit my posts without indicating that I have and in what manner (in the [edit]this is what I edited[/edit] fashion).

Thanks for the discussion.

Now, lets hear more about that giant dog of yours. Any progress?

[cannon_fodder]

Giant Dogs?  You mean the neighbor dogs that get out?  Or my personal beasts?

My personal beasts aren't terribly large.  Together the 2 of them are probably under 120 pounds.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Giant Dogs?  You mean the neighbor dogs that get out?  Or my personal beasts?

My personal beasts aren't terribly large.  Together the 2 of them are probably under 120 pounds.

Compared to my scrawny little 20lb Schnauzer they are. I am mostly past my child raising, family guiding, career building phases. All I have left to bully around is my Schnauzer and he seems to like it. Not that it has anything to do with anything.