Let's try a new way of discussing immigration..

[Der Teufel]

Chicken little,

IP didn't run me off, just bored with his babble. Er ist ein ziemlich stumpfer Gefährte, Sie zustimmen? Or in Okie, he's a boring guy.

You'll never convince him, and he is not interested in a real debate, he simply avoids the questions he doesn't wish to answer or engages in spin and equivocation. Or he is a sarcastic donkey of the fashion that probably had few dates in college. Waste of time to deal with him in any fashion.

It is refreshing to know there are compassionate people on both sides of this debate, you and Wingnut being examples.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Do courts make the law, Conan? Or does Congress?

Congress may pass a law denying citizenship to children born to illegals.  SCOTUS may deny citizenship based upon a cert petition.  Is this really that difficult?

Sure, they may, but they haven't yet.  And the law says they are US citizens.  Is it really that difficult?

Yes, it is more difficult and complex than you're making it.  You're making leaps that DON'T exist in the law.  There is no law/ruling that grants them citizenship.  They are NOT LEGAL, their citizenship exists in a vacuum in the law.

 
The major legal distinction between a child born to an illegal and ME is that MY citizenship CANNOT BE CHALLENGED any longer.  There is STANDING PRECEDENT stating that children born to legalized citizens are defacto citizens.  There is NO SUCH RULING making that determination for anchor babies.  The best you can establish is a lack of the practice being challenged which does not equate to "legal."  The Courts simply haven't made a determination yet.  They have not examined whether the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction" includes children born to illegals.  Until then they are neither legal nor illegal, they simply live in the US.

[restored2x]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Hey, I just wanted to slip in an aside here.  You may remember a thread of a few weeks past that discussed the downturn in business in Tulsa's Latin community and reports that Latin people were leaving town.  I expressed some reservations then about how deep this exodus was going to be.  I am now confident based on news reports, reports from friends and calls to my place of employment, that there is indeed a real exodus in progress.  

Of course I am most sad that people are living in fear and Oklahoma has acted without humanity in a way that diminishes all of us.

And it looks like this really may effect Tulsa's bottom line.  

I want you to remember that we can thank our Congressman Sullivan and his cronies for this.

It would be interesting to hear from these people directly. Maybe some of your Latin business owner friends could sign up for an account and tell us what is going on.

If they're more comfortable in spanish - there's a place on here (Thanks TulsaNow!) that we could discuss this issue in spanish. English would be better, just because more people can participate. Spanglish also acceptable.

Tulsa businesses are important to all Tulsans - maybe hearing directly from someone affected would elicit more humane conversation and give some of us a different perspective.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by Der Teufel

Chicken little,

IP didn't run me off, just bored with his babble. Er ist ein ziemlich stumpfer Gefährte, Sie zustimmen? Or in Okie, he's a boring guy.

Got anything of substance to add der wienerschnitzel or are you just here for the ad hominems?

quote:
Or he is a sarcastic donkey of the fashion that probably had few dates in college.

With as much attention as you give to me it seems like that's what you're wanting from me...why else would you be so obsessed?

[iplaw]

quote:You see, this is much better. I understand this. But you are backwards and you know it. The 14th amendment applies until a ruling says otherwise.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.  The Constitution has be to interpreted to give meaning to phrases like "subject to the jurisdiction", as most issues require subjective SCOTUS interpretation.  No one has ever asked the question of SCOTUS, "are children born to illegals really citizens?" and until that happens they are simply just allowed to stay, that DOES NOT EQUATE to being LEGAL.  Whether someone is really legal or not depends on how the court rules with regards to interpreting "subject to the jurisdiction."  Until then...well...they just are because we refuse to do anything about it.

By your logic there can be no such thing as an illegal alien because as soon as they cross onto American soil with the intent of staying they become citizens because they are now "subject to the jurisdiction."  Plainly an unworkable legal definition.

[Wingnut]

Here's a story I found kind of interesting ....
THE RAID HOTLINE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
By Ed Morrissey

Illegal immigrants are mad as hell, and they're not going to take it any more. Claiming that the government "terrorizes" illegal by arresting them, activists have set up a hotline in my old stomping grounds of Orange County, California to tip off illegals when and where the ICE will conduct raids on employers (h/t CQ reader Stoo):

Responding to a refusal by city leaders to declare the city a sanctuary for illegal immigrants, more than a dozen people gathered outside City Hall on Monday night to denounce recent immigration raids, accusing federal officials of "terrorizing" immigrant communities and breaking up families.
A coalition of local immigrant rights groups, including the Orange County Alliance for Immigrants Rights and the Front Against the Raids, announced a planned program to create a hot line that will notify people where and when immigration raids will take place. The program would also coordinate a support system for the families of deportee targets.

"We want to have a more organized effort to counter these attacks," said Jaime Conteras, a 20-year-old Filipino immigrant who now lives in Santa Ana. "We cannot let people trample on our rights."
During five days of raids in June, 175 people in Orange County were arrested on suspected immigration violations. The raids arrested 27 suspected criminals, including a man wanted for murder and a convicted child molester. Santa Ana was one of the targeted cities.

Out of 175 suspected illegals, a seventh of them turned out to be wanted on other criminal charges, including murder and child molestation. And this is bad ... how?
Conteras needs a little more instruction on what constitutes rights. People who enter the country illegally have the right to due process on deportation, but they do not have the right to not be arrested for breaking the law. People who break the law get arrested when and where they are found, and it is not "terrorism" to arrest them at home, despite what immigration "activist" Khang Tran believes. If parents want to protect their "small children" from feeling fear, they should not come into the country illegally.

Now these same activists want to warn people of impending raids by setting up a hotline and trolling for tips. That should constitute interference with law enforcement, but the Orange County Register -- which helpfully includes the phone number -- doesn't mention that in its report. If someone set up a hotline to tip off criminals about an ATF or DEA raid, you can bet your bottom dollar that it would get the attention of the local US Attorney lickety-split -- and this should be no different.


Here's a question for the experts...What "rights" do the illegals have?
How does one deal with a family that is illegal, but with an anchor baby?
I'm sure it happens all the time, but legally, what's the outcome?

[Der Teufel]

blah blah blah

[kakie]

I discovered a new blog that has some information about illegal immigration in Oklahoma.  It appears there will be several lawsuits filed by more than one hispanic organization. They said the want to make "Oklahoma an example" I guess to show they have more power than the state government.  

And the campaign is on to shift the focus of the new law, HB1804, on the backs citizens and the state legislature as an act of hate.  Surely you have seen the new billboards?  If not, you can see the most offensive one on this blog I stumbled across one day.  It is called ztruth.  I find the information thought provoking.

go to http://ztruth.typepad.com/ztruth/2007/08/we-are-going-to.html

[dbacks fan]

In response to kakie's article here are a couple of other web sites that talk about how they want to take back what is theirs, because it does not belong to the US.

http://www.nationalmecha.org/archives/2007/04/naccs_xxxiv.html

http://www.aztlan.net/homeland.htm

[dbacks fan]

And here is an article on Anchor Babies

http://www.nbc-2.com/Investigates/articles/readinvestigativearticle.asp?articleid=4869&z=5&p=

[dbacks fan]

And if this person show up at a rally, you will think the end is near.

http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/JoseAngelGutierrezQuote.html

[Wingnut]

Info on Jose Angel Gutierrez:
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2212

Interesting that a professor that teaches impressionable youth says things like this... "We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him."

[shadows]

IPLAW Quoted:
(/quote)Again, all I'm asking for is (1) O-N-E case that states (and not in dicta, in the actual opinion) that children born to illegal immigrants are citizens.(/quote)

(/quote)What the hell are you talking about?(/quote)

In going back over the posting on immigration I see where you are asking for the dictum of just o-n-e case where the court has used a sharp stylus to shape a decision on the right of citizenship to those born under the provisions of the Fourteenth  Amendment to alien parents.  Although this case can be cited as the foundation for instant suits;  being an old case it is relevant in cases that are brought before the courts today.

[In United States v.Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), held that a person born in the United States, and therefore a citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment, could not be excluded as an alien, although his foreign born-parents were not eligible for naturalization.]

Not withstanding that the court changes the constitution sometimes with their interpretation of a word or phase and has become a politically guided court; still is the last to determinate the laws of the land.  

[shadows]

comp error

[eron2u]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We all bleed red!..We are all human beings. How can you call this the bible belt! We are even teaching are kids in schools across the country NOT TO BE RACISITS! Citizen ship, no citizen ship. WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!

IT'S SIMPLE,,IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY!!!!!!IT ISNT CITIZENSHIPS!!!

This crisis is a shame. It is tearing GOOD, loving families completly apart. Mexicanos married to americanos and Americanos married to Mexicanos,OR WHAT EVER RACE .WITH KIDS, working, etc. Stopped for some unethical reason, basically physical apperence!) and SNATCHED tearing families in half!.hUM I WONDER WHY MOTHERES ARE STANDING IN LINE AT OFFICES. I DO ANYTHING I COULD TO TO FEED MY BABY(S)

What has THIS COUNTRY or state become.! We preach and preach not to be rasicit,OR FIGHT but in turn  are childern watch us..THEY LEARN FROM US!

We are teaching them that a double standard is right!...WRONG...

IT"S money money money, and some one is making it some where.

Where are the people in the church, the belivers? God wasnt from here either, yet we dont question him or send him back, now do we. We dont call people to see if he is on a status do we. but he is here in the US , he is in our homes. He is every where!!!! Real belivers like myself, DONT JUDGE, DONT CARE ABOUT NO MONEY, OR MONEY, IT'S HOW WE TREAT EACH OTHER JUST LIKE THE ABOVE TEACHES US TO DO.

WE SAY NO ABORTION, NO NEGLECT TO OUR BABIES BUT IT'S OK TO SEND A PARENT THAT IS THE SOLE SUPPORTER OF FOOD AND MONEY BACK, LEAVING BABIES AND FAMLIES TO STARVE AND BE HOMELESS..NAH...SOMETHING IS WRONG.

ARE FORFATHERS HAD NO PAPERS EITHER. REMEMBER WE TOOK IT FROM THE INDIANS. GEE I WONDER IF THEY ARE TRYING TO GET IT BACK!